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Leftists and Rightists: The ones who prefer to spend public money on war

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Americans have said similar things, about how evolved we've become. We're a lot different now than we were in 1945, that's for certain.
Well...with foreign eyes...I'd say (with all due respect): not quite.
Watching the American movies from the forties-fifties...I think: where's the difference with today? Similar way of thinking. Similar people.

The Germans of today are another species. It's like those Germans who elected Nazis were an other species...darwinistically speaking.
Same thing as for Italians.
I have never understood my grandparents. They were another generation...and the generation gap between us millennials and those who lived WW2 is not a gap...it's an incredibly deep chasm.
It's like we even spoke two different languages...actually we did. I couldn't understand their dialect...and they couldn't understand my Italian.

But we were on the verge of a great many changes. War may be animalistic, but oftentimes our leaders paint it as humans having to tame the "animals" and "savages" of the world.
The notion of taming may make sense.
The problem is the means. The end doesn't justify the means.
You can also tame nations through love, diplomacy, peaceful methods.
Ukraine and Russia can become democratic through love and good relations. Not with nukes.

The book and movie White Fang shows all this, since we are speaking of taming. Through love and affection, the protagonist turned a wild wolf, White Fang into a cuddling pet.

And I have examples. How India became independent.

In a sense, war may be viewed as kind of like bullfighting or lion taming. Americans might even see Europe as being "tamed" by us, which is why they're peaceful now, yet they've also been America's trusty sidekick ever since.
With all due respect...but as an European it doesn't make sense at all.
The first part is very true. After Europe was freed from the Nazis, we Italians and Germans have been moulding our civilization around the myth of the American-savior, that taught us that war and imperialism are monstrous and disgusting.

In our constitution we use the term "Italy repudiates war as instrument of settling controversies". Repudiate in Italian (ripudiare) implies disgust and repulsion towards something primitive.
In the American Constitution there will never be the expression "America repudiates and repels war as system and as instrument".
Never. Not even in 300 years.

So...when USA went to wage wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan...we were shocked.

It's like as if we were alcoholics and our loving parent (America) saved us with rehab and now we despise alcohol.
And then we find out that our loving parent drinks alcohol 24/7. It's shocking. :)
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It doesn't

What your post her tells me is how you personally justify the invasion and war mongering of Putin.
A man (in name only) who sent other people to die because he is an honor less coward.
This is a thread meant to condemn all politicians who prefer war as a solution.

Unless you want to make a point...something like: the politicians of my team can wage thousands of war...because we are the West, we are God. Whereas the others are manure.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well...with foreign eyes...I'd say (with all due respect): not quite.
Watching the American movies from the forties-fifties...I think: where's the difference with today? Similar way of thinking. Similar people.

American movies from the 40s and 50s were far different than what came out in later decades. But many older policies and attitudes from that era have fallen by the wayside. In fact, a lot of the old movies from those decades, particularly westerns and the standard "Cowboys and Indians" fare, have been roundly criticized in more recent times for its stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans. Supreme Court landmark decisions outlawing segregation came in the 50s and 60s, and the Civil Rights Act and many key events in the Civil Rights Movement took place in the 1960s. Plus, there was the anti-war movement and strong push towards liberalism and social justice which brought about many changes and reforms.

Reagan was kind of a throwback and encouraged more regressive policies. The Democrats could not beat them, so in essence, they joined them. So, America probably did regress in some ways, but with a relatively modern twist (which included corporate-inspired "political correctness"). But I would say that America has also changed a lot, too.

The Germans of today are another species. It's like those Germans who elected Nazis were an other species...darwinistically speaking.
Same thing as for Italians.
I have never understood my grandparents. They were another generation...and the generation gap between us millennials and those who lived WW2 is not a gap...it's an incredibly deep chasm.
It's like we even spoke two different languages...actually we did. I couldn't understand their dialect...and they couldn't understand my Italian.

I don't know how different the Germans or Italians might be from what they were during WW2. I suppose one could draw an analogy to American history, considering the history of expansionism, racism, and other policies commonly associated with right-wing fascism and warmongering. Compared to what we were 100-200 years ago, we're a completely different species now (but that doesn't mean we're that much "better").

The notion of taming may make sense.
The problem is the means. The end doesn't justify the means.
You can also tame nations through love, diplomacy, peaceful methods.
Ukraine and Russia can become democratic through love and good relations. Not with nukes.

Yes, having good relations is an important component. I get the sense that US foreign policymakers aren't really trying hard enough. They seem to resort to the stick more often than the carrot.

I think we missed our chance with Russia. In the past couple of years, America has moved to the top of Russia's **** list. It'll probably be a long time before we can ever get to a point where we can have good relations.

The book and movie White Fang shows all this, since we are speaking of taming. Through love and affection, the protagonist turned a wild wolf, White Fang into a cuddling pet.

Reminds me of this scene:


And I have examples. How India became independent.

Yes, the history of India's independence is also quite fascinating. The European colonies were already starting to get more restless after WW1, so it had to happen sooner or later. But there were still a great many problems. The partitioning of Pakistan and India has led to ongoing difficulties between those countries. They also partitioned Palestine, and we can see how that's turned out. And the countries of Africa have borders which were drawn up in Europe, and they've been stuck with it ever since.

India is large enough and powerful enough now that they don't have to dance to anyone's tune, but it seems clear that they don't see eye to eye with the West in terms of geopolitics.

With all due respect...but as an European it doesn't make sense at all.
The first part is very true. After Europe was freed from the Nazis, we Italians and Germans have been moulding our civilization around the myth of the American-savior, that taught us that war and imperialism are monstrous and disgusting.

In our constitution we use the term "Italy repudiates war as instrument of settling controversies". Repudiate in Italian (ripudiare) implies disgust and repulsion towards something primitive.
In the American Constitution there will never be the expression "America repudiates and repels war as system and as instrument".
Never. Not even in 300 years.

So...when USA went to wage wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan...we were shocked.

It's like as if we were alcoholics and our loving parent (America) saved us with rehab and now we despise alcohol.
And then we find out that our loving parent drinks alcohol 24/7. It's shocking. :)

Interesting viewpoint. During my lifetime, my observation is that Americans have tended to view Europe as our NATO allies. We have had bases and military personnel in Europe since WW2. Of course, I've known more than a few Americans who feel that America has unnecessarily burdened itself and believe that Europe can take care of itself. But European NATO members have participated in various US military actions, at least to some degree or another. When France balked about the US wanting to go into Iraq, Americans were led to react with irritation and disdain, which is when that whole "freedom fries" business came up. My sense is that, in addition to everything else surrounding that war, the warmongers seemingly had quite a few shills out there working the public.

In America, the big slogans revolve around "freedom" and "democracy," but whatever peace-loving or anti-war sentiment which once existed has apparently diminished greatly since the height of the anti-war movement. It seems that most of the public never really bought in to that whole "peace and love" thing. War is too deeply embedded in the national fabric to be something that would ever really go away. A case can certainly be made for not fighting any unnecessary wars or wars which don't involve us directly. But our country was founded in war. Our National Anthem is about war, as it was written during a war. "Land of the free and home of the brave."

George Carlin pointed out that America is a warlike country:

 

idea

Question Everything
I'm not a fan of war, but not a fan of bystanders either.

I support protecting innocents, but there seems to be no innocent sides in anything anymore.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Putin is neither dem nor GOP... this is more about the US politics.
I was thinking of those lords of war who destroyed Iraq, Libya, Afganistan...etc...etc...
:)
If it's just about US politics then why bring Britain into it? Your OP starts off with that. I remember the Falkland war and that most Americans thought it was a bad thing, that Britain was just flexing. It was also a fiasco for Britain.

So if you're mashing Britain and the US together, it makes sense to bring the war hungry oligarchy in Moscow into the discussion. But you like certain plutocrats and oligarchs. You've made that clear before.

You would benefit from listening to Black Sabbath's song 'War Pigs'. There's plenty of blood thirsty war mongers all over the world.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If it's just about US politics then why bring Britain into it? Your OP starts off with that. I remember the Falkland war and that most Americans thought it was a bad thing, that Britain was just flexing. It was also a fiasco for Britain.
No...I am just bashing one woman...Margaret Thatcher...and her disgusting hypocrisy.
That is...that she used to preach how the public expenditure was too high and in order to save the economy (and other monetarist nonsense from someone who doesn't even have a economics degree) cuts, cuts, cuts on public expenditure were necessary.
And then, two seconds later, she spends 3 billions pounds on an useless war in the Southern Atlantic.

This is shameless and impudent incoherence.
So I suppose she meant: this Tory Government detests the poor...so we will not spend one penny on the poor....but we will spend billions of pounds on a war to save a tiny piece of the colonial Empire.


So if you're mashing Britain and the US together, it makes sense to bring the war hungry oligarchy in Moscow into the discussion. But you like certain plutocrats and oligarchs. You've made that clear before.
Again: I am afraid that what you mean is that wars are justified only when the USA wages them.
Russia is manure...so all the wars waged by Russia are unjust.
Right? ;)
You would benefit from listening to Black Sabbath's song 'War Pigs'. There's plenty of blood thirsty war mongers all over the world.
Especially in the West. In my country too...but they can't say it openly...because the people would lynch them if they did.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I'm not a fan of war, but not a fan of bystanders either.
It's unjust to use the term bystander to define those who want to mediate between belligerent parties with a super partes attitude.
The super partes attitude is to use diplomatic means against Russia and not warlike means. Economic sanctions and so on.
Such means are peaceful and modern. And not as primitive as warlike methods.
I support protecting innocents, but there seems to be no innocent sides in anything anymore.
In war being sensible brings you incredibly good results. Rage brings you nothing but escalation of conflicts.
 
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