• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Legalizing Shoplifting in America

Should shoplifting be legalized in America?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • No

    Votes: 16 72.7%

  • Total voters
    22

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
OFF TOPIC ALERT!!


That raccoon vid was the cutest thing ever. And I also believe he knew it was wrong to steal it. Look at the intelligence he displays when he looks if the coast is clear. He checks his surroundings before he steals the mat. If he didn't know any better he would have boldy come to take it. Never underestimate the intelligence of animals....they are smarter then we think.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Vassal said:
Of course the media displays love as nothing more than sexual attraction, but true love is caring about the well being of someone else above your own. How can you say you love someone if you're taking 40 years off their life just to fulfill your lustful desires? There is no love involved in a homosexual relationship, only lust.

You know what, contrary to what you think is potentially offensive about your post (as evidenced by your bold, red type), this is the most vulgar statement in all your tripe. Homosexual relationships are not based solely on sex. If homosexual relationships were only about sex, same-sex couples wouldn't be committing to one another and moving in together and taking care of each other and fighting for their relationships to be treated as equal under law (so that they and their partners can have the same protections that opposite-sex couples unappreciatively take for granted) if that were the case and especially when ignorant fools are trying to make same-sex couples'/homosexuals' lives all the more difficult. Man, given the social situation of homosexuals, I'd say that there is more love in same-sex relationships than opposite-sex, not too mention that homosexual relationships offer equality to both partners, whereas heterosexual relationships seem to fall victim frequently to patriarchy (where the woman is there solely for the man's pleasure and service--which thus follows that most heterosexual relationships are based on fufilling the male partner's sexual appetite).

Vassal said:
And it's not only for selfish reason that homosexuality is wrong, but for the benefit of the potential homosexuals out there. The average lifespan of a heterosexual never-divorced male is 75. Can you guess what the average lifespan of a practicing homosexual is? Roughly 40! Yes, that's right, the average male practicing homosexual lives just a little bit more than half as long as a married heterosexual male. The main reason for this is because gays have a much higher risk for diseases, any where from 200% - 10000% more likely depending on the disease, so many insurance company refuse insure them. As a result they die much much earlier from various diseases, mostly sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS, because they just can't pay for treatment. And we aren't talking a few dollars here, if homosexuals was no longer a legal reason to turn down insuring someone then insuring costs for everyone would go up hundreds of dollars a year. Treating all those life threating STDs isn't cheap.

Any data on the lifespan of female homosexuals? Just curious if they were left out because they didn't fit into your anti-gay agenda or you just don't think (like the Victorians) female homosexuality exists or is even possible...

I'd also like to see your sources for these figures and when and where this particular data was collected. If you're so willing to throw them out there, you should be more than willing to provide them when asked. Appreciate it.:cool:
 

Smoke

Done here.
I'd also like to see your sources for these figures and when and where this particular data was collected. If you're so willing to throw them out there, you should be more than willing to provide them when asked. Appreciate it.:cool:
Can you say Family Research Council? I used to argue with people who came around with FRC "data," Alyssa, but the truth is, information about Paul Cameron and the FRC is readily available all over the internet to anybody who wants it. People who use that kind of stuff aren't interested in the truth, and it's a waste of time to discuss anything with them. There's nothing you can do to combat willful ignorance.
 

standing_alone

Well-Known Member
Can you say Family Research Council? I used to argue with people who came around with FRC "data," Alyssa, but the truth is, information about Paul Cameron and the FRC is readily available all over the internet to anybody who wants it. People who use that kind of stuff aren't interested in the truth, and it's a waste of time to discuss anything with them. There's nothing you can do to combat willful ignorance.

Good point.
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
I believe that shoplifting should be legalized in America. I can't help it that I'm hungry, I was born this way. To those of you who say shoplifting is sinful or unnatural, I can prove to you it isn't! See here: Shoplifting Seagull in Scotland. If an animal does it, then it must be natural and morally acceptable for us humans to do it also. Plus, look how cute that seagull is, how can anything that cute be wrong? Shoplifting should be legalized in America!
Vassal -

As long as it's OK for people to steal from you, too.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Close, it was meant to be an analogy to show the foolishness of the arguments that people use to support homosexuality.

The "I was born this way" argument:
I hate to break it to those who justify their actions with this arguement, but people are born everyday with various addictions, mental disorders, or even just plain old hormone imbalances. This makes them much more likely to do certain things, such as get angry, do drugs, and any number of different things, but this in no way justifies their actions.

The "Animals do it, so it's natural" arguement:
Animals steal, kill, scheme, throw feces at each other, and many other things that would never be accept in society, yet someone see this arguement as valid?
Both of these are logical counters to the "God doesn't like gay people; it says so in this book" argument, which is the only one with any sort of foundation I've ever seen from any anti-gay group.

The "It's love, so it can't be wrong" arguement:
Anyone who says this obviously doesn't know what love is. Of course the media displays love as nothing more than sexual attraction, but true love is caring about the well being of someone else above your own. How can you say you love someone if you're taking 40 years off their life just to fulfill your lustful desires? There is no love involved in a homosexual relationship, only lust.
Actually, I think this argument boils down to, "it's love and therefore Holy and therefore necessarily from God; therefore it is not evil."

--== Some of the content might be slightly vulgar to some people, but it is the truth about homosexuality. Just FYI. ==--

And yes, gay relationships do harm other people. For one, they cause health costs to rise. If gay marriages are legalized by the government, then insurance companies cannot set a higher premium for gays, so everyone's premium has to go up.
Quantify this impact, please. I think you're completely wrong on this: I don't think same-sex marriages would affect your insurance premium one iota, but please, do the math for us and demonstrate that you're actually advocating second-class status for an entire group of people for what you think will be pennies.

You think its healthy sticking your penis in someone's butt or to sticking your tongue in someone's ***? Sorry, it's one of the most unhealthy things a human being can do. Feces comes out of there, why would a person ever think of doing such a thing? Its disgusting.
If you think that, then stop doing it. ;)

If you think it's too risky and want to ban it, great. In return, we can prohibit you from smoking, motorcycling, riding horses, playing sports or whatever other activities you do that people might dislike.

We should probably ban puppies as well: they eat feces and then lick childrens' faces. I'm sure you'd find that disgusting, and that's all we need to ban something, right?

Also, I find bananas disgusting. I can't understand how anyone would actually eat something that smells like that. Can I ban bananas, or are you the only one who gets to choose what to prohibit?

And it's not only for selfish reason that homosexuality is wrong, but for the benefit of the potential homosexuals out there. The average lifespan of a heterosexual never-divorced male is 75. Can you guess what the average lifespan of a practicing homosexual is? Roughly 40! Yes, that's right, the average male practicing homosexual lives just a little bit more than half as long as a married heterosexual male. The main reason for this is because gays have a much higher risk for diseases, any where from 200% - 10000% more likely depending on the disease, so many insurance company refuse insure them. As a result they die much much earlier from various diseases, mostly sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS, because they just can't pay for treatment. And we aren't talking a few dollars here, if homosexuals was no longer a legal reason to turn down insuring someone then insuring costs for everyone would go up hundreds of dollars a year. Treating all those life threating STDs isn't cheap.
This is flat-out fiction.

Just for a moment, though, do some more math for me: find out the rate of AIDS in the gay population and the average cost of treating one case over the course of that person's life. Then, find out the rate of age-related dementia in the overall population, and the average cost of treating one case over that person's life. Now... divide the cost of treatment for each by the number of cases per 100,000 (100,000 gay people for AIDS, and 100,000 people overall for dementia) - this will give you the average financial cost per person of each condition.

If gay people die at age 40 like you claim, they will not suffer from age-related dementia, and their deaths will save society (including you) the cost of their costly treatment for this common condition. If you're talking out of your butt (which I strongly suspect) and there's no appreciable difference in life expectancy, then the horrible costs of gay STDs that you're worried about won't actually happen.

Given all this, now please demonstrate that the average health-related cost of a gay person is higher than that of the population at large.

Why don't I let homosexuality be? Because I want people to know the truth before they throw away half their life. Research has proven this time and time again, homosexuals significantly decrease their lifespan and once-married heterosexuals significantly increase their lifespan. Go do a search on the terms "Homosexual Lifespan", "Insured Homosexuals", and "Disease Risk Homosexual" if you don't believe me. If your goal in life is to die at 40 and make your parents bury you, then a homosexual lifestyle is a good way to get there. Homosexuality destroys both your physical life and spiritual life, is it really worth it?
I have done some research on these topics. Either you haven't and you're just going by what you've been told (or perhaps you consider just swallowing whatever your church gives you as "research"), or you have and you're being dishonest.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Heya Vassal,
Vassal said:
Close, it was meant to be an analogy to show the foolishness of the arguments that people use to support homosexuality.
If your argument is strong then resist the urge to resort to characterising your opponent or your opponents argument. A strong argument remains strong regardless of how foolish counter arguments are and, whats more, does not become stronger if this foolishness is highlighted. All that will do is reduce the effectiveness of your argument, reduce the effectiveness of your future arguments and stunt the development of your debating skills.

Vassal said:
The "I was born this way" argument:
I agree but you are ignoring the context within which the original argument was put.

Vassal said:
The "Animals do it, so it's natural" arguement:
Initially, the detractors of homosexuality argued that it is unnatural. This argument is unsound because it relies on a hidden premise to associate "unnatural" with "wrong" and invalid because one of its premises is either internally or externally inconsistent (the definition of "natural").

However, to their folly, advocates of homosexuality decided to ignore these clear weaknesses and instead accept the premises but deny the conclusion. The result is that many now feel that the "naturalness" of homosexuality is necessary for it to be okay and attempt to justify it through arguments like the one you highlighted here.

I agree that they are very wrong for exactly the same reasons (see above) as their opponents are wrong.

Vassal said:
The "It's love, so it can't be wrong" arguement:
I agree that love is more than sexual attraction but I don't think you've hit the nail on the head here either. Things that are done out of love can still be wrong, perhaps. It seems to be the main premise of the argument so I don't see why you wouldn't attack it since it is entirely unsupported.

I suppose if you are simply unaware that you are taking 40 years off of their life then you could still love them. For example, if you are heterosexual and unknowingly contracted AIDS and then got married and had sex with your partner then you have obviously shorterned their life. However, they clearly can love their partner since they were unaware of this factor. Its not exactly common knowledge that being homosexual takes 40 years off of your life and even if it were, its still possible to genuinly believe otherwise and so consequently attain love.

Which brings me to the next point of the lack of support for the figure you quoted. No, I'm not going to find evidence for you as you ask me to later in your post. You brought the point to the debate so it is reasonable for you justify it and then we can discuss your justification. Until then your point holds no meaning and so I'm unable to discuss it any further.

So yes I think you make good points so far that far too many pro-gay people have not brought reasoned arguments to the table as to why gay is okay. The same can be said of anti-gay people. The majority of people are not schooled in debate or argument so this is not really surprising. It is important at this point to not make the common fallacy of then assuming that there are no coherent arguments for either side since so many are incoherent (although evidently there cannot be a coherent arguments for both sides).

Vassal said:
And yes, gay relationships do harm other people.
Here is a list of unsupported propositions that you have made. Debates are about justifications of propositions, not the propositions themselves so this one cannot continue until you produce said justification. I agree that in many instances, it is okay to do so when everybody in the debate accepts the proposition or when the proposition is of minor importance but that is not the case here.
  • Homosexuals cause health costs to rise
  • Homosexual sex is one of the most unhealthy things a person can do
  • Everyone's insurance premium would go up if gay marriage was legalized
  • If insurance premiums did go up, they would go up by hundreds of pounds a year
  • The average lifespan of a practicing homosexual is roughly 40
  • The average lifespan of an undivorced heterosexual male is 75
  • The last two propositions are shown by more than one study
  • There exists a disease which homosexuals are 10000% more likely to contract than non-homosexuals
MidnightBlue said:
There's nothing you can do to combat willful ignorance.
Maybe that is the case but I won't know that for certain till my death.
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
My Holy Book says shoplifting is OK, therefore it should be! I demand that everyone kowtow to my religious rules, and we change the laws in this country to reflect them! My religion is the only valid religion out there, and everyone should follow what it says whether they want to or not. It's only fair, since there's only one way, and it's found in my Book.
And, if you disagree with me and don't support shoplifting, or even worse choose never to steal anything, the Gods will sentence you to an eternity of harvesting wheat with wooden scissors in perpetual heat.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Whether "wrong" or not, there are legal penalties for stealing under the law. Does "illegal" equate to "wrong"? Can you think of some instances when it doesn't?

One can arbitrarily decide what is "right" and "wrong" and try to enforce it by power of law backed up by the force of the state on ANY issue. How about outlawing Christianity? Let's say I think it's wrong. The mere fact that you want to be a Christian and believe it to be true, by the above logic, would be no argument against outlawing Christianity. Rather, whether the law would be "just" or not would have to be assessed according to some other criteria for most people.

The same is true of laws against homosexuality and shoplifting. By what criteria would you assess that homosexuality is wrong or unlawful? What relationship does that have to why shoplifting should be unlawful? If you're going to use the Bible to "argue by appeal to authority" one can easily justify doing away with all property rights and laws against theft by use of the Bible . . . so be careful what you ask for . . . :eek:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
doppelgänger;961566 said:
Whether "wrong" or not, there are legal penalties for stealing under the law. Does "illegal" equate to "wrong"? Can you think of some instances when it doesn't?
Sure, plenty, provided you don't simply consider breaking the law to be "wrong" in and of itself:

- driving faster than the speed limit but below the design speed of the road
- selling food in units other than the government-mandated standard (i.e. selling sugar by volume instead of by weight, or selling in imperial units where the standard is metric)
- landscaping your property with attractive ground cover that's longer than 6 inches (the height at which, around here, the town by-law says I'm required to cut it)
- not declaring goods subject to duty when you know you're under your exemption limit
- turning off the (non-demand-controlled) ventilation system to an empty movie theatre during business hours

And of course, there's the classic "stealing bread to feed your starving family"-type crimes, which, while illegal, can be thought of as being an overall good action, since they prevent a greater evil.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Here are some nice lyrics from a song by Evangelical Christian artist and radio talkshow host Michael Card:

"Distressing Disguise"
He is in the pain, He is in the need
He is in the poor, we are told to feed
Though He was rich, for us He became poor
How could He give so much, what was it for?

In His distressing disguise
He waits for us to surmise
That we rob our brothers by all that we own
And that's not the way He has shown


Every time a faithful servant serves
A brother that's in need
What happens at that moment is a miracle indeed
As they look to one another in an instant it is clear
Only Jesus is visible for they've both disappeared

He is in the hand that reaches out to give
He is in the touch that causes men to live
So speak with your life now as well as your tongue
Shelter the homeless, take care of the young

In His distressing disguise
He hopes that we'll realize
That when we take care of the poorest of them
We've really done it to Him
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
No. Even if you're hungry, you don't have a right to steal. Get a job and go buy yourself some Top Ramen.

You have to be very poor not to afford some top ramen. In the stores here they are tem packs for a dollar.

So there....There is no need to steal.......

There is a job out there for everyone (depending on your standards).....

You will never open the Sunday papaer to find a big sign that says NO JOBS......

And what's to stop people from stealing from each other instead of stores? Imagine, I'm walking down the street to go steal that 50" LCD TV I've been wanting and I happen to see one in the livving room of some ones home.........Will it be OK for me to steal it?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Close, it was meant to be an analogy to show the foolishness of the arguments that people use to support homosexuality.

The "I was born this way" argument:
I hate to break it to those who justify their actions with this arguement, but people are born everyday with various addictions, mental disorders, or even just plain old hormone imbalances. This makes them much more likely to do certain things, such as get angry, do drugs, and any number of different things, but this in no way justifies their actions.

The "Animals do it, so it's natural" arguement:

Animals steal, kill, scheme, throw feces at each other, and many other things that would never be accept in society, yet someone see this arguement as valid?

The "It's love, so it can't be wrong" arguement:
Anyone who says this obviously doesn't know what love is. Of course the media displays love as nothing more than sexual attraction, but true love is caring about the well being of someone else above your own. How can you say you love someone if you're taking 40 years off their life just to fulfill your lustful desires? There is no love involved in a homosexual relationship, only lust.

--== Some of the content might be slightly vulgar to some people, but it is the truth about homosexuality. Just FYI. ==--

And yes, gay relationships do harm other people. For one, they cause health costs to rise. If gay marriages are legalized by the government, then insurance companies cannot set a higher premium for gays, so everyone's premium has to go up. You think its healthy sticking your penis in someone's butt or to sticking your tongue in someone's ***? Sorry, it's one of the most unhealthy things a human being can do. Feces comes out of there, why would a person ever think of doing such a thing? Its disgusting.

And it's not only for selfish reason that homosexuality is wrong, but for the benefit of the potential homosexuals out there. The average lifespan of a heterosexual never-divorced male is 75. Can you guess what the average lifespan of a practicing homosexual is? Roughly 40! Yes, that's right, the average male practicing homosexual lives just a little bit more than half as long as a married heterosexual male. The main reason for this is because gays have a much higher risk for diseases, any where from 200% - 10000% more likely depending on the disease, so many insurance company refuse insure them. As a result they die much much earlier from various diseases, mostly sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS, because they just can't pay for treatment. And we aren't talking a few dollars here, if homosexuals was no longer a legal reason to turn down insuring someone then insuring costs for everyone would go up hundreds of dollars a year. Treating all those life threating STDs isn't cheap.

Why don't I let homosexuality be? Because I want people to know the truth before they throw away half their life. Research has proven this time and time again, homosexuals significantly decrease their lifespan and once-married heterosexuals significantly increase their lifespan. Go do a search on the terms "Homosexual Lifespan", "Insured Homosexuals", and "Disease Risk Homosexual" if you don't believe me. If your goal in life is to die at 40 and make your parents bury you, then a homosexual lifestyle is a good way to get there. Homosexuality destroys both your physical life and spiritual life, is it really worth it?

I really just scanned over what you're saying here.....but if you think gay is something new then you are mistaken. Gay and lesbian people go back thousands and thousands of years.

You're going to have to show some real evidence that STDs from gay people out weigh those of heterosexuals because contrary to popular belief...AIDS didn't start with gay people.

As far as sticking your tongue in some one elses %&*&%$....we can do without the profanity Mr./Mrs. Christian...!!!!
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
doppelgänger;961668 said:
What if you give a moose a muffin?
It might follow you home (which would be cool on a children's TV program, but not so much in real life).
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I think it's vegetarian recipe time for this thread.

I've got this great one for gnocchi in a vegan almond mint cream sauce...
 
Top