Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, it tends to keep me obedient because I am aware of God's power so I know what can happen if I am not obedient.

Sounds more like you know what God can do to you if you are not obedient.

What does it mean to “fear” God?

When the Bible refers to the “fear of the Lord,” it means having a deep respect, reverence and awe for God’s power and authority. Rather than causing someone to be afraid of God, a proper “fear of the Lord” leads one to love Him.

What Does the Fear of the Lord Mean?

But if you meant that, you would have said it. You chose the word "fear" for a far simpler reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah offered that to spread unity, we must be the first to embrace unity and be the example of it.

When we struggle with concepts of faith, we can embrace this unity by listening to what others can offer, or better still immerse oneself in the study of that specific element until the light of understanding permeates our soul. This is one of the hardest things to do when we have conflict within our own self, yet the most satisfying when we make this effort of change.

Why then do no Baha'is listen to what I have to offer and make an effort to understand my perspective?
Why am I always the one who needs to make an effort to change?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sounds more like you know what God can do to you if you are not obedient.

Yes, that is what I said. I am aware of God's power so I know what can happen if I am not obedient.

But if you meant that, you would have said it. You chose the word "fear" for a far simpler reason.

Why do you think I chose the word fear?

For me, fear of God means having a deep respect, reverence and awe for God’s power and authority and that includes what God can do to me if I am not obedient.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, that is what I said. I am aware of God's power so I know what can happen if I am not obedient.

Why do you think I chose the word fear?

For me, fear of God means having a deep respect, reverence and awe for God’s power and authority and that includes what God can do to me if I am not obedient.

Right -- you are obedient, because if you step out of line, He will hurt you.

What more needs to be said?

 

[muhammad_isa]

OK. Submit an example of a religion that you reject as true (despite its believers insisting it is true) because it lack’s evidence. And then contrast this to your religious beliefs that you consider true via evidence and reason.

It was you who asked "Can you acknowledge this, that you reject religious claims that are not consistent with yours?"

..so you give me the religion/creed, and I will try to answer why I reject it. OK ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Right -- you are obedient, because if you step out of line, He will hurt you.

What more needs to be said?

God can hurt me because God is all-powerful, but that doesn't mean God will hurt me, and fear that God will hurt me is not the reason I am obedient. I am obedient to the laws of God because that is one of The Twin Duties of my religion.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

 

[F1fan]

It was you who asked "Can you acknowledge this, that you reject religious claims that are not consistent with yours?"

..so you give me the religion/creed, and I will try to answer why I reject it. OK ?

So your religious beliefs, that are unlike those you have rejected, were not a result of evidence and reason? I took your prior answer yo mean you determined your beliefs are true and through evidence and reason, and also was the basis for you rejecting others.

Can you clarify?

 

[TLK Valentine]

God can hurt me because God is all-powerful, but that doesn't mean God will hurt me, and fear that God will hurt me is not the reason I am obedient.

Oh, you don't think He would? Do you think you could ever disobey God and... what? Get away with it? Hope He doesn't notice?

It is never the severity of punishment that deters; but the certainty.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why then do no Baha'is listen to what I have to offer and make an effort to understand my perspective?
Why am I always the one who needs to make an effort to change?

A lot of people have not faced great challenges in life. Thus it all becomes relative to people's frames of references and hard for some to have empathy.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, you don't think He would? Do you think you could ever disobey God and... what? Get away with it? Hope He doesn't notice?

It is never the severity of punishment that deters; but the certainty.

Of course God will know if I disobey Him because nothing escapes God's knowledge, but there is no certainty that I will be punished, because God is the Ever-Forgiving.

“Thy loving providence hath encompassed all created things in the heavens and on the earth, and Thy forgiveness hath surpassed the whole creation. Thine is sovereignty; in Thy hand are the Kingdoms of Creation and Revelation; in Thy right hand Thou holdest all created things and within Thy grasp are the assigned measures of forgiveness. Thou forgivest whomsoever among Thy servants Thou pleasest. Verily Thou art the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Loving. Nothing whatsoever escapeth Thy knowledge, and naught is there which is hidden from Thee.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 178

.

 

[Trailblazer]

A lot of people have not faced great challenges in life. Thus it all becomes relative to people's frames of references and hard for some to have empathy.

Regards Tony

It is hard for someone to have empathy for another person unless they have walked in their moccasins.

 

[samtonga43]

As Christ, Jesus was all we could know of God. Yet that statement is the same for Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Krishna and Zoroaster, Buddha, Abraham and Moses to name but a few.

If those who heard Jesus, understood that, then yes indeed, they did know exactly what Jesus offerd, that the flesh amounts to nothing, and that it is the spirit which is the light and Life.

The Messengers are One, given of our One God, to the one human race.
Regards Tony

God gave Himself, in the Person of Jesus. As the hymn goes:
"There was no other good enough
To pay the price of sin
He (Jesus) only could unlock the gate
Of heaven and let us in".

 

[samtonga43]

Of course God will know if I disobey Him because nothing escapes God's knowledge, but there is no certainty that I will be punished, because God is the Ever-Forgiving.

So why the fear?

 

[samtonga43]

It is hard for someone to have empathy for another person unless they have walked in their moccasins.
View attachment 68669

I don't find it hard to have empathy with those in this world in dire need, with the child who has lost her mother and father in Ukraine, with the victims of terrible abuse (often from their own family members).

I do find it hard to have empathy with those who complain about their 'hard life', while enjoying a warm place in which to live, money to buy food and cars, friends to talk to --- and who still complain.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Critical thinkers are highly skeptical of religious concepts, yet believers are quite confortable asserting their beliefs..

Uhh, no.
Again, that is like saying that religious people are not being rational, if they think that God is likely to exist.
Your idea of "critical thinker" is more one of "materialist thinker".

I defer to reason, evidence and science. Until experts in science reveal a supernatural exists as a cause, or even a phenomenon, I surely have no reason to believe there is..

Well, you are safe there then.
"experts" in science are not gods, but human mortals like ourselves. Why should God show them the unseen, but not us?

I am aware that believers base their assumptions of an "author" on ancient religious books, not science, not evidence, not reasson, just a tradition of belief. That is inadequate to make the judgments you hold firm to.

The Qur'an is not "ancient", relatively speaking .. and nether is the NT.

I wondered why these people were Christian at all when they couldn't get along..

Did you?

We see in the OT, that mankind are often envious of one another. Adam's son, Cain, killed his brother Abel .. not even over wealth, but over his brother being praised.

Both Muslims and Christians are tempted by evil .. being religious in fact, often means that satan [the envy of others] causes them to behave badly .. temptation is there for all.

Oddly some religious members came to me since I was a more independent and objective person.

Mmm .. "satan" probably decided you are no longer a threat, and you get some peace.

Yet Christians believe he was divine, or still is, whatever version of Christianity you're looking at. They believe what they do because of their tradition of belief, and I suspect you do as well.

Yes, the tradition was forced on the Romans by their rulers, and the tradition still remains.
I believe what I do, because the Qur'an leaves no doubt.
i.e. Jesus is the promised Messiah, and not God

Critical thinkers use a high standard of evidence, just like the courts and science requires. If any theists have ever presented adequate evdience of their god existing it would spread like wildfire and repeted by theists everywhere..

How is that?
Why is it that people tried to kill Jesus and Muhammad?
Human beings are not all interested in the truth .. some despise it.

Ask Christians about Islam and you hear all sort of critical analysis that they don't apply to Christianity. Aren't you doing the same by questioning the divinity of Jesus?

Of course not. It is only because some Christians oppressed others that Jesus "must be God".
The Qur'an is explicit .. the Jews have it .. God cannot be a person .. a person is created by God.

A moral author would surely not create cruelty if it was capable, don't you think? Would you create a world with flesh eating bacteria that kills humans? Or would you consider that a sort of random torture as I do?

I can't understand it. The more my health declines, the less it makes sense.
However, what makes the least sense to me, is that the world evolves just "because" .. no reason .. only creatures have reason that comes from naught.
My mind tells me that Almighty God is the creator from naught.
Nothing can come from naught, without something else being responsible.

This illustrates the trap religions have on people's minds and ego. Believers can't examine their own beliefs because if they discovered they are flawed or wrong, what is the alternative for the ego?

Nothing to do with ego.
If you can convince me that Jesus is God, or that God does not exist, I will change my beliefs.

So far, I have not found a better coherent explanation. My experience shows that it is the truth .. whether I am able to follow it or not is another matter. I can but try.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Right -- you are obedient, because if you step out of line, He will hurt you.

..or we will hurt ourselves if we do not listen.

Like a child who disobeys their parent who only wishes to protect them from harm.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why the fear?

"Perhaps the friends do not realize that the majority of human beings need the element of fear in order to discipline their conduct? Only a relatively very highly evolved soul would always be disciplined by love alone. Fear of punishment, fear of the anger of God if we do evil, are needed to keep people’s feet on the right path. Of course we should love God – but we must fear Him in the sense of a child fearing the righteous anger and chastisement of a parent; not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His Mercy exceeds His Justice"

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 238

 

[Trailblazer]

God gave Himself, in the Person of Jesus. As the hymn goes:
"There was no other good enough
To pay the price of sin
He (Jesus) only could unlock the gate
Of heaven and let us in".

Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Krishna and Zoroaster, Buddha, Abraham and Moses did not pay the price of sin for all of humanity since that was not part of their Mission from God. That was the Mission of Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

 

[samtonga43]

"Perhaps the friends do not realize that the majority of human beings need the element of fear in order to discipline their conduct? Only a relatively very highly evolved soul would always be disciplined by love alone. Fear of punishment, fear of the anger of God if we do evil, are needed to keep people’s feet on the right path. Of course we should love God – but we must fear Him in the sense of a child fearing the righteous anger and chastisement of a parent; not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His Mercy exceeds His Justice"
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 238

Isaiah 41:10
So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation— whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life—of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 46:1-3
God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam and the mountains quake with their surging.

Psalm 118:6
The Lord is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.

Isaiah 41:13
For I am the Lord your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you.

Hebrews 13:6
So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.

Luke 12:32
(Jesus says), “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.”

Psalm 56:3-4
When I am afraid, I put my trust in you. In God, whose word I praise—in God I trust and am not afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?

Luke 12:7
Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't find it hard to have empathy with those in this world in dire need, with the child who has lost her mother and father in Ukraine, with the victims of terrible abuse (often from their own family members).

I do find it hard to have empathy with those who complain about their 'hard life', while enjoying a warm place in which to live, money to buy food and cars, friends to talk to --- and who still complain.

It is more difficult for someone to have empathy for another person unless they have walked in their moccasins, but it is not impossible to have empathy for people just by imagining what they are going through.

A person can a warm place in which to live, money to buy food and cars, and friends to talk to, and suffer more than a person who does not have all the physical niceties. Suffering is highly subjective, as is happiness.