Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, one Christian cannot be the "majority of Christians."URAVIP2ME is 'the majority of Christians'? Don't be silly!!
He is just an example of one Christian "within the majority" who cherry pick.
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No, one Christian cannot be the "majority of Christians."URAVIP2ME is 'the majority of Christians'? Don't be silly!!
That doesn’t even sound reasonable. Do you know of anybody who hires someone to work against him?Satan is an OT agent of Yahweh
See above.Satan was an angel of Yahweh and agent of Yahweh
So [God’s] too weak to control an agent he made evil
Now please debunk the fossil record for hominids rather than just saying its opinion?
You believe that the majority of Christians cherry-pick? Do you have evidence?No, one Christian cannot be the "majority of Christians."
He is just an example of one Christian "within the majority" who cherry pick.
That is your perception..
..your opinion .. not the opinion of billions of Muslims.
I do care .. but reach a different conclusion to "your scholars", because I don't think it is possible to make definitive conclusions about the existence of God from study of ancient history.
Original? How do you know it is "original" ?
It is "ancient", and likely revised many times over.
That's not true .. I interpret earlier scriptures in light of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a major revelation .. Christianity and Islam are the world's most populous beliefs.
Angels aren't part of G-d, they are created beings.
Muslims do not worship angels or satan etc..
..for you, yes. That is because you have decided that they are all equally untrue.
Every claim is different, and needs to be investigated on its own merit.
If you wish to talk about the claim of 'John Doe' or anybody else, why don't you start a thread about it?.
False. I treat all claims as potential truth until I have reason to believe otherwise..
You have already made this false analogy previously.
I do not see Christians as "wrong" .. they believe in G-d as I do.
The "details" differ .. that is about being human..
It is understandable that people would want to live forever in "a paradise", but not all denominations teach that a believer will automatically go to paradise.
In fact, it would be much easier to believe that everything finishes at death, as one would no longer need to concern themselves .. and could terminate their lives if they suffer continually..
I do care. I am fully aware of "scholars of ancient history" who say that there is no evidence to support early monotheistic belief or that Moses actually existed, or Noah's flood is impossible, and that YHWH was just one of many gods da da..
I just happen to think that ancient historians cannot prove it, and don't happen to think they are right.
..and even if I spent hours and hours dredging through their claims, it wouldn't change a thing .. you would still say that it is all false myth. .
So you say .. anybody that believes in God has been fooled, according to you.
You can't remove faith from Muslims with a few so-called "facts" about ancient history .. maybe "the evidence" is incomplete, and more than likely is..
Orthodox Jews also believe in a life hereafter .. check it out, if you don't believe me..
Your argument is no different than the one about vitamin D.
Scientists have noticed that high vitamin D levels are associated with better health.
Some scientists assume that supplementing with vitamin D is always a good thing, whilst others conclude that it might not be a "causal relationship", and might not always be a case of "more is better". It could just be that a person has a healthy lifestyle ..gets out more etc..
The same with your conclusions about Hebrews "beginning to adopt" as opposed to being taught by "sons of God" .. which you deny exist, along with God.
It is based on assumption, and conclusions will differ depending on "who" you ask. It depends on more than "historical scholarship".
That is your belief.
Your statement is incorrect. People ask God for truth and guidence and are led to Mormonism, JW, Hinduism, and led to believe the Quran is false. You are talking about instances where people are led to Islam. This demonstrates that people find whatever is closest of catches their eye.It is not a random statement.
If somebody decides that God exists [nevermind why, for a moment], then it is reasonable to assume that God is able to guide them towards truth, if that is what they sincerely want.
Why would you ask somebody to prove it?
You either believe the scriptures, or you don't.
God knows best [ I believe in God ], why one person believes and another doesn't.
Of course, you assume that all claims about God are false, and that all believers are being fooled.
I most certainly feel fooled .. but not by my religion or God.
Nobody knows for sure .. all we have is imaginative idea, and belief in God [or not]
I know .. you can't see it can you.
It's amazing what positive thinking can do, rather than "it's all a load of twaddle"
..testing God?
eg. I will only believe if you prove it to me
..rather silly really..
Waste? What are you on about?
There are millions of believers who are suffering severely .. whether it be because of war, famine, flood etc.
If we were all dead, and knew nothing about it, there is nothing to "waste" .. one would only consider it a "waste" if they were having a good time etc.
Millions of people do not have the opportunity to enjoy life .. they have a miserable existence.
..and it can be demonstrated that those people, despite their predicament, are more likely to be believers.
..but that is another topic, and complex in nature.
Most educated Muslims do .. I have already mentioned that Muslim doctors make up a large percentage of Medical Doctors in UK .. and many of them worship 5 times a day.
Well, perhaps you can tell me of someone you know who has "seen God"..
Yes "interactions" or manifestations that "the chosen messengers" experience.
It is difficult to prove that God is behind an unexplained event. Skeptics will assume that there is a "rational" explanation for practically anything.
Ridiculous .. crack everybody's heads open and look for God in our neurons???
Belief in God is a spiritual thing.
Skeptics and people who make jokes about religion cannot believe. It is the way we are wired. God is closer to us than our jugular vein, yet denial brings spiritual blindness.
No, it isn't .. the NT is not claimed to be a direct revelation from God. It is claimed to be chosen texts by an ecumenical council, of anonymous authors, who are believed to be "inspired by God", but not prophets.
You tell me what has been changed by scribes and why.
..and how did they manage to do that without being detected, as it has been memorised in its entirety from very early on.
You are mistaken. Ask Jewish scholars what "son of God" means, and you will see. The idea of "son of God" translating into one of three of a trinity is not a Jewish idea.
nd yes .. Jesus was addressing a Jewish audience .. the conversion of gentiles came later.
I know you don't.
Let me start here. God is something people believe in without proof. Nevertheless people believe in God. It is optional for you to believe it or not, but proof is not the reason to believe in God. It would be prize winning to come up with something, but in the end such a proof would not be proving God but some other thing.
I do respect PhD's, however this doesn't require a PhD. Jesus is Israel in a story about a man who dies but is resurrected for his sinless life. This story is written in a time where it has a poignant message of courage for the Jews who have been overrun and destroyed by Rome.
No PhD is necessary. Each gospel mentions fulfillment and how Jesus fulfills a prophecy about Israel. This happens more than twenty times, and each time it is a prophecy about Israel that Jesus fulfills. There is no need for a complex theory or extensive data collection or genius. Anyone can check this by finding in software the word 'fulfil' in the gospels and then checking to see what the fulfilled prophecies were about. It takes twenty minutes to a couple of hours.
I respect PhD's and think they are important, and their research matters.
That is a sentence equating opposites. Immortality is not the goal of Jesus and his disciples. They borrow the Greek story format but repurpose it.
That doesn’t even sound reasonable. Do you know of anybody who hires someone to work against him?
That’s illogical.
Adam willfully disobeyed Jehovah, aka Yahweh. The Devil couldn’t do the same thing? Or could it be he has free will, as humans do?
In fact, Jesus indicated that, at one time, the Devil was *in* the truth; but he didn’t “stand fast” in it. John 8:44.
To say someone “didn’t stand fast in” something, means that before, they were in it.
Is a child born a thief? Of course not! And I’m almost positive most thieves weren’t raised as such.
But they make themselves thieves/rapists/murderers
by the choices they make, due to free will.
Oh, He’s controlled & controlling Satan & his demons more than most realize!
Genesis 6:1-4, and the Scriptures that reference the account, namely Jude 1:6-7 & 2 Peter 2:4, reveal just how much!
They were / are still nymphos - “all whom they chose.”
If they had their way, we would be enslaved, just to produce women for them to defile which Genesis 6:1-4 outlines they did.
Such events were the source material for the common thread of gods having sex with women and producing offspring we read of in the many diverse, unrelated myths we’ve discovered from the post-Flood ancient world.
This world is being influenced by them today (Revelation 12:9)…but not to the extent they would like.
Didn’t I already give you the reason why Jehovah God has allowed these wicked conditions to exist? It’s related to the issues (sovereignty , etc.) raised in Eden, which Adam gave validity to by rebelling, and in other Bible books.
It is….it is nothing but conjecture. They can’t extract DNA from fossils, you know that.
These were species of creatures that went extinct.
And artists’ conceptions of how they looked, are simply that: conceptions, ie, fanciful guesses.
That is right .. satan has a free-will as we do.Adam willfully disobeyed Jehovah, aka Yahweh. The Devil couldn’t do the same thing? Or could it be he has free will, as humans do?
No it isn't.You don't know that because you haven't reviewed ANY of the information. It's a statement from ignorance..
There is a difference..The Torah was transmitted to father and son and teacher to student. It was taken very serious in Israel. No different than Quran verses you claim were transmitted orally.
In fact there are a sect of Jews in Israel today who are supported by their women and all the men do is memorize the Torah. It's the same tradition continued to present day..
Yes it is.The Quran isn't anymore "major" than any other revelatation.
That is the same thing? Brahman created everything including lesser divinities?
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me..You do not. Are you investigating the Jesus in Australia?
I don't need to .. the above quote from wiki leads me to believe that it is in error, and I do not live in India, so why would I?You haven't investigated any Hinduism..
Oh, really?No it's far easier to believe one has a soul and will not die and you have a special magic friend in the sky..
I haven't got any "book" containing every event in history.And interestingly you cannot explain why, where, when or how they were wrong..
Yes, you deduce what you deduce .. confirmation bias is part of the "equation" .. if you could absolutely prove that Judaism is based on false premise, the whole lot comes tumbling down.Actually there are hundreds of thousands of facts about ancient history. We don't know everything but we know the basics of their religious beliefs and what influenced Judaism..
Yes, and that's my point. They don't know that .. it's based on a hypothesis. Who gets to decide what level of vitamin D is low?First they recognize the 50% vitamin D deficiency in populations worldwide..
Serum circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH) D] level should be measured to evaluate vitamin D status in patients who are at risk for VDD. VDD is defined as a 25(OH) D below 20 ng/mL (50 nmol/L).
Then get into treatment options and strategies..
..but the conclusions are not.Likewise the historical information is from many sources in the ancient Mediterranean culture..
Are they your gods?Pliny, and other historians knew of everything happening..
Once upon a time..If the Jewish people were taught by a prophet he would have been as famous as Muhammad..
You say that "the Qur'an got it from the Greeks", implying that Muhammad was the author, and he wrote it through knowledge that he possessed.First saying ridiculous captain obvious statements like this over and over show you are done..
Scripture?Al-Ma'mun was one of the most famous scholars who brought Greek knowledge to Islamic scripture and culture.
Nobody is claiming otherwise..Byzantine science thus played an important role in not only transmitting ancient Greek knowledge to Western Europe and the Islamic world, but in also transmitting Arabic knowledge to Western Europe, such as the transmission of the Tusi-couple, which later appeared in the work of Nicolaus Copernicus.[1] Byzantine scientists also became acquainted with Sassanid and Indian astronomy through citations in some Arabic works.[23]"
I'm not, actually.Your statement is incorrect. People ask God for truth and guidence and are led to Mormonism, JW, Hinduism, and led to believe the Quran is false. You are talking about instances where people are led to Islam..
That is contradictory. One cannot "ask" anything of something that does not exist.Also people who leave religion still ask for guidance but never get it because they realize the only guidance is from our own mind..
One cannot prove the existence of God to another .. unless they are somebody special .. which I am certainly not.The demonstrate a God exists. If you cannot then how do you demonstrate it's not just a concept in your mind?
Indeed, nature is real .. part of the creation, if you believe in God.NAture is real..
You are an intelligent person.People use this positive thinking and end up in all sorts of cults..
Yes .. I felt exactly the same when I first read it. Its descriptions of violence and hell caused me to reject it.You act like God is some angry king figure in the sky. I have read the quran and that is the impression I also get. Scary and made up..
God is not just there to answer our supplications .. particularly of those that doubt.A study in 2006 indicates that intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients had no discernible effects..
Islam does not teach otherwise...appreciate family and whatever moments you get, even if in war.
I'm more of a scientist and mathematician than an historian.Right but the Drs who are historians are getting no respect..
You'll have to ask the Jews about that .. it's their book.However in the OT God is very detectable..
I do not know details, but I believe that Muhammad had interaction with Angel Gabriel, yes.Hmmm, you haven't mentioned that yet? You said it was nonsense that Muhammad embraced an angel. Yet his bio said he did.
I've never seen one .. but I have felt their presence.You said angels are undetectable..
..but what does that mean?If Yahweh is real he can appear in human form..
..back to that again.I did believe. I realized I believed something not real. The Bible tells Yahweh can do anything including appear as a man..
Well, that is interesting .. can you show me in 'wiki', where Paul is claimed to be a prophet?Yes it is. The Epistles are direct revelations from Jesus to Paul.
.."too much water under the bridge" .. John the Baptist .. JesusSo has the Torah yet you say it's not trustworthy.
Yes, yes .. but who was Jesus conversing with in the verse that quotes "Nobody comes to the Father except through me"?A Samaritan woman was the sole audience for one of Jesus’ greatest dialogues. She received the assurance that the time was near when God would be worshipped, not just in Jerusalem (where the Jews worshipped) or at Mt. Gerizim (where the Samaritans worshipped), but all over the world “in spirit and in truth” (John 4:5-42).
Well, there you go..“I tell you, many such foreigners shall come from the east and the west to join Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But many others who thought they were ‘sons of the kingdom’ (the chosen people of Israel) shall be shut out” (Matthew 8: 11-12, author’s paraphrase).
Yes.You believe that the majority of Christians cherry-pick?
I gave you evidence of one Christian.Do you have evidence?
Philosophical. The difference is that fiction is something you don't believe. Assumptions are beliefs. Theology begins with the assumption of God and then uses reason to try to determine what God's properties must be, so it is philosophical not fictional. I think of fiction as something made to entertain and educate. Philosophy is an attempt to use reason and axioms to come to conclusions.God is a fictional concept
I don't worry about the sound of a word. I realize that mysticism is very important in the modern world, and many people place special emphasis upon letters, sounds and phrases. I don't think it is central to a conversation about God, except that it shows God doesn't seem to correct anyone about it or give aid to the one trying put God under a camera. One says 'Jehovah' and another does not, and God doesn't try to correct either one. There are no lightning strikes over it.The meaning of the name `Yahweh' has been interpreted as “He Who Makes That Which Has Been Made” or “He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists”, though other interpretations have been offered by many scholars. In the late middle ages, `Yahweh' came to be changed to...
My challenge to you is to be familiar with all of the Tanach and understand the laws, the concerns of the prophets and the contexts of the stories. Translation is a weakness, but its nowhere near as bad as ignorance of these other things. Hellenists have brains, can understand metaphors and symbols and tongue in cheek statements, jokes, parodies and all kinds of writing devices. They go to theater, read things. They are also trained in memorization.You read the original Hebrew or Greek for start. Then compare it to the source material. As I demonstrated the NT is a Hellenistic document and Jesus is written in that light. He is not a metaphor for Israel.
A scholar must be willing to read the works and proposals of other scholars, too; including ones they disagree with. That is how scholarship proceeds. Since he is a scholar it is likely David Litwa proposes a model in which Jesus is a Greek deity. I'd be surprised if he were to simply point out something or declare all objections to be wrong.As David Litwa points out in his latest work, Jesus is a Greek deity:
I wouldn't presume to write a paper without having read up enough to matter; but anybody can look in scripture software for the word fulfill and check to see that its plainly always about Israel. For this I rely heavily upon those who have provided translations. They did this so that I could make such comparisons.But, you can always write a paper and submit it for peer-review. You need to read the Greek however.
Many people would like for that to be so, however gospel narratives show an awareness of Titus destruction of the temple which only happens as late as 70CE. Are you trying to tell me that the NT predicted this would happen before 70CE? No, of course you aren't. Therefore your dates seem ludicrous. These gospels are either supernaturally written, or they are written after 70CE. Now this ought to change the perspective for you, because we are talking about something written after the recent destruction of the temple, after 30,000 crucifixions have lined the streets of Jerusalem and a people's peaceful prerogatives have been punished with torture. These gospels are written in a time of pain and resolution to commit to peace. They are amazing because of that commitment. But you think its just hellenistic thought? I can't be persuaded.Hellenistic thought is evident in the narratives which make up the books of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures were revised and canonized during the Second Temple Period (c.515 BCE-70 CE)...
So you do have evidence that the majority of Christians cherry-pick. From where did this evidence come?Yes.
I gave you evidence of one Christian.
I cannot give you evidence of "the majority of Christians" since that would not fit in a post.
The Bible canon itself .So you do have evidence that the majority of Christians cherry-pick. From where did this evidence come?