Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

[TLK Valentine]

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God did not say that Adam would not have died physically if Adam had not eaten the fruit. God did not say "because you ate the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil you will die physically, but it you had not eaten that fruit you would have lived forever in the same physical body," which is what Christians believe.

I believe this verse refers to spiritual death, not physical death.

That is the traditional interpretation... in no small part due to the inescapable fact that they did not physically die on that day... meaning either God lied or it's not literal.

Doctrine prohibits entertaining one notion, and in some cases, almost prohibits the other.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Nope… Ge’enna is not hades. If you’ll check, you’ll see the mistranslation. It was used that way, to promote a doctrine….to support a bias.
Hell is not Gehenna.

Then there are a lot of mistranslated Bibles out there... how infuriating.

Almost enough to make one wonder if any of them are worth the paper they're printed on...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I believe this verse refers to spiritual death, not physical death.

If this were true, that it was spiritual death, don’t you think that that would require an explanation? Adam would have no idea what a spiritual death would mean.
However, Adam would know what physical death was, by observing the animals dying.

And they did die; fossils of ancient life forms are everywhere.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is the traditional interpretation... in no small part due to the inescapable fact that they did not physically die on that day... meaning either God lied or it's not literal.

Doctrine prohibits entertaining one notion, and in some cases, almost prohibits the other.

I don't believe that God would lie so that means that if it was God's Word, it is not literal. The other possibility is that the Bible is not actually the Word of God. After all, it was written by men, not by God, and not even by a Prophet of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If this were true, that it was spiritual death, don’t you think that that would require an explanation? Adam would have no idea what a spiritual death would mean.
However, Adam would know what physical death was, by observing the animals dying.

How do you know that Adam could not have known what spiritual death was?
But even if Adam did not know what spiritual death was the verse could still be referring to spiritual death.

Since Adam did not die physically on that day, it cannot be about physical death unless the Bible verse is wrong or God lied, and if that verse is wrong, what reason do we have to believe other Bible verses are not also wrong? Of course that opens up a Pandora's Box of possibilities.

 

[Trailblazer]

And they did die; fossils of ancient life forms are everywhere.

But they did not die on the day they ate the fruit.

Don Stewart: Did Adam and Eve Die When They Ate the Forbidden Fruit?

The Bible says that God warned Adam about eating the forbidden fruit:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17).

Eve also understood this warning as she repeated it to Satan.

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die (Genesis 3:3).

Did they actually die when they ate the forbidden fruit? The Bible says that they did not physically die the moment they ate the fruit but lived on many years afterward. Is this a contradiction? The answer is, No. There are several ways in which to understand the sense in which Adam and Eve died.

Three Types Of Death

The Bible lists three types of death. There is physical death when the body dies. A second type of death is spiritual death - a separation of the spirit from the body. A third type of death is eternal death - permanent separation of humanity from God.

Death Was Spiritual

Some interpreters contend that Adam and Eve did die when they ate the forbidden fruit, but their death was spiritual, not physical. The main idea behind death is separation. The death that Adam and Eve experienced when they ate the forbidden fruit was immediate separation from God.

Physical Death

They also experienced physical death for their disobedient act. Though it was not immediate, it still was a result from their disobedience of God. The Lord promised:

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of dust you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return (Genesis 3:19).

The physical death was postponed due to God's grace but the spiritual death was immediate. The Bible says that after they sinned God said:

Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken (Genesis 3:23).

Begin To Die

Others have interpreted the expression to mean that the death process began the moment they ate of the forbidden fruit. Though they did not immediately die physically, the death process began to take hold of their bodies, which as we know, eventually ended in their death. Scripture records that Adam did eventually die.

Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died (Genesis 5:5).

Idiomatic Expression

Another view sees that the phrase the day you eat of it as simply a Hebrew idiom meaning as surely as you eat of it. Other biblical examples are provided to show what the phrase means in other contexts.

For it shall be, on the day you go out and cross the Brook Kidron, know for certain you shall surely die; your blood shall be on your head (1 Kings 2:37).

Then Pharaoh said to him, Get away from me! Take heed to yourself and see my face no more! For in the day you see my face you shall die! (Exodus 10:28).

As Certain As

In both of these passages, the expression in the day means simply as certain as. If we apply this to Genesis 2:17 we do not need to explain that Adam and Eve experienced death that very same day they ate the forbidden fruit, but rather their death sentence was something for certain.

Would Live Forever?

This brings up another issue. Would Adam and Eve have lived forever if they had not sinned? Though the Scripture does not specifically tell us, the strong inference is yes. God gave them this perfect environment and promised they could eat of the tree of life. Death would only result if they disobeyed Him and ate the forbidden fruit.

World Overpopulated

Some argue that this would not be possible because the world would soon become overpopulated with all the perfect people. This, of course, assumes that all of the descendants would not sin. Since this did not happen, it is fruitless to speculate on what could have happened.

Summary

Adam and Eve did not physically die the moment they ate the fruit but they both eventually did die. The phrase in the day that you eat of it can be understood in a number of ways without finding a contradiction in Scripture.

If they had not sinned, we assume they would have lived until someone else did sin. Because they did sin, any idea of what may have happened is only speculation. What is not speculation is the consequence of their sin. The prophet Ezekiel.

The soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4).

Did Adam and Eve Die When They Ate the Forbidden Fruit?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Then there are a lot of mistranslated Bibles out there... how infuriating.

Almost enough to make one wonder if any of them are worth the paper they're printed on...

Many times in Scripture, fire is symbolic of complete destruction… that item (or whatever) is gone forever.
For instance, Revelation 20:13-14 says “death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire.”
Question: how can you burn death?
You can’t. But God promises to get rid of death.
And the next chapter, Revelation 21:3-4, states “death will be no more.”
it will be ’gone forever’.

By examining the plethora of ancient manuscripts, it can be determined what is accurate & inaccurate. Overall, though, the integrity of the Bible has been kept to an amazing degree!
The Qumran / Dead Sea Scrolls bear this out.

You made a point, earlier, about Thomas Aquinas saying something that I wasn’t aware of. (I appreciate that.) Something about the “greater good”?
In a way, that fits, because once these issues are settled, they will never be raised again, with any question of validity.

This experimental trial humans have suffered through, with humans ruling themselves, has only proven they can’t do it successfully. In fact, they’re currently ruining the Earth. Interesting that God foretold that such a thing would happen. Revelation 11:18

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How do you know that Adam could not have known what spiritual death was?
But even if Adam did not know what spiritual death was the verse could still be referring to spiritual death.

Since Adam did not die physically on that day, it cannot be about physical death unless the Bible verse is wrong or God lied, and if that verse is wrong, what reason do we have to believe other Bible verses are not also wrong? Of course that opens up a Pandora's Box of possibilities.

Please read about Yom in the Overview, on Wikipedia
Yom - Wikipedia

Those creative days were not 24 hr days. Adam’s words, after Eve’s creation, “This is now / at last / finally bone of my bone”, clinch it. He wouldn’t have said that, after only 1 day alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Many times in Scripture, fire is symbolic of complete destruction… that item (or whatever) is gone forever.
For instance, Revelation 20:13-14 says “death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire.”
Question: how can you burn death?
You can’t. But God promises to get rid of death.
And the next chapter, Revelation 21:3-4, states “death will be no more.”
it will be ’gone forever’.

In Revelation 21:3-4, where it states “death will be no more” I believe that refers to spiritual death, not physical death. The promise was that after Christ returns, there will be no more spiritual death because everyone will be alive spiritually.

There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit cannot ever die. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.

Jesus said that spirit and flesh are not equivalent. The spirit quickens, the flesh profits nothing. The flesh profits nothing because it is subject to sin and it is mortal, not everlasting. Why would God want humans to have a physical body and live in it forever?

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:

we are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[rational experiences]

The teaching.

Why does a human say to another human human man you were first?

As they theoried life's non existence on earth is why.

Men humans born babies from two human parents sex claim human life began in out of space as an alien inside machine.

Today owning a built machine claim by theory they want alien contacts to resource inside a machine they control react. As just humans.

So you just ask ..did you invent the alien then human man brother...memory says so?

Hmmmm he says. Maybe.

It can't be human life history thesis can it?

Then is hearing of voice a changed human brain mind?

Yes.

Okay also proven not correct outcome a pre voice in a state.

States the thesis always precedes the humans life...so isn't human.

So how did you evolve from a pre voice image?

Pretend is involved not theory.

Once I know I'm a cloud God man I created clouds.

Oh I thought you're just a human first.

You do a review.

Outside sun mass dusts is a fuel keeping heavens burning. As gases lit just combust we'd all die Instantly.

Men caused the suns mass to cross into our gas heavens. Burning gas increased its mass. We began losing ground pressures.

Water kept with us to keep water biology microbial types living. Left above. Food ground growing. In fact memory said it didn't need to rain once. Water abundance what we don't own anymore gave us a higher living spiritual human life.

Nature an incredible presence. We lost it to burning above flooding. Man's introduced laws for changing heavens. Our life punished for changing above. The legal review.

So now science has taken our heavens mass back in time so it's now flooding again.

We've lost heavenly evolution. Cloud mass support...it falls away burning.

So if you ask a theist if you copy a mass that's reactive heavens one body.....you don't own copying by a machine. It's not equals equals.

Yes I know but my man God self made a portional cloud above increase.

Oh did you scientist.

Yes.

I want it transported into my machine.

Same theme above to machine below.

Oh now it's just flooding rain in law. You didn't get it as you didn't create it. Clouds increased mass itself above.

But you knew you caused it.

So you ask a scientist don't you thesis as if sun is a machine heavens it's reactive body inside like your human built machine. You compare by human thought.

Yes I probably do.

Why you're wrong. Space is the place it all occurs in out or from space.

Not a machine.

It's why humans exact position thought upon.... I walk on the ground a human didn't come from out of space.

And Jesus not a man but a cloud walked on water above in heavens position ....how my man image was obtained in increased cloud mass.

Science today I take from mass put it in machine. I theoried to remove a portion of cloud mass and it didn't work.

Reason...I'm not God above and I'm not clouds history I'm just a human. No man is God the teaching.

Legal statement no man is God said against the human scientist. Exact.

 

[samtonga43]

I agree, but that is irrelevant to my point that like you, he considers himself lucky to have faith in a god, whereas I consider myself fortunate to be free of religion.

LOL! I consider myself to be fortunate to be free of atheism.

 

[samtonga43]

Nope, not mine. I’m no part of Christendom. Most of them think Jesus is God. However, Jesus stated that “the true worshippers will worship the Father”. (John 4:23) Who, then, do the false ones worship?

God the Father is the first Person of the Trinity, which also includes his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[rational experiences]

If theists of science were correct. In organisation there would not be any extra curriculum criminal activity.

Proof lying only produces falsity. False self belief and false human control.

As faith is faith that a human owns a spiritual life with a pre spiritual purpose.

Why we live karmic causes our own teaching. Once we were in the creator body eternal. The body that changed its own body portion to own creation.

As we consciously were still in the eternal body we state as humans we came out of it by forced causes into creation. To live exist in a new experience.

We inherited the creators causes. We live karma as the intelligence who had changed its owned body type.

It's why the being is dominion in creation yet also dies and is destroyed as biology. As we were never meant to be here. Our exact teaching.

Is what our conscious memory advised us as just biology a human is our human baby life only.... from human parents.

Memory advised us of the terms why we were forced to live a human experience we never spiritually wanted.

As we aren't the creator the created only is present if humans allow it's presence.

We know if you remove mass we will all die.

To thesis in mind says I'll copy.

A humans biology desists dies and is removed.

Criminal mind thought copies and does it personally as just a human by human choice. Same as machine science theist.

Why science knowingly taught itself a criminal also. Known knew yet still lie it's a holy act.

Reasoned history. Once I murdered Satanists humans to keep my family safe and holy.

A memory and reality.

 

[rational experiences]

If theists of science were correct. In organisation there would not be any extra curriculum criminal activity.

Proof lying only produces falsity. False self belief and false human control.

As faith is faith that a human owns a spiritual life with a pre spiritual purpose.

Why we live karmic causes our own teaching. Once we were in the creator body eternal. The body that changed its own body portion to own creation.

As we consciously were still in the eternal body we state as humans we came out of it by forced causes into creation. To live exist in a new experience.

We inherited the creators causes. We live karma as the intelligence who had changed its owned body type.

It's why the being is dominion in creation yet also dies and is destroyed as biology. As we were never meant to be here. Our exact teaching.

Is what our conscious memory advised us as just biology a human is our human baby life only.... from human parents.

Memory advised us of the terms why we were forced to live a human experience we never spiritually wanted.

As we aren't the creator the created only is present if humans allow it's presence.

We know if you remove mass we will all die.

To thesis in mind says I'll copy.

A humans biology desists dies and is removed.

Criminal mind thought copies and does it personally as just a human by human choice. Same as machine science theist.

Why science knowingly taught itself a criminal also. Known knew yet still lie it's a holy act.

Reasoned history. Once I murdered Satanists humans to keep my family safe and holy.

A memory and reality.

Satan in a humans theist life.

Satan first cloud image angel man.

I'm a human.

I believe by thesis Satan cloud man deserves cloud mass destruction. Satan is unholy.

Talking direct to self the man human in his mind theorising destruction of all things.

Why scientists were named Satan.

Other men said Satan the cloud angel is holy.

Becomes with heavens evolution it's not evil you human man science theist is.

How human men of science lied.

Why they argued Satan's holiness above.

And why human Satanists in science were then murdered.

As Satan above was considered holier than a human scientist with a machine of metal.

 

[F1fan]

Science doesn't describe anything.

False, it is the job of science to describe nature, through observation, laws, and theory.

There are scientific observations, and conclusions are made based on them.
Things aren't so black and white as you make them out to be.

You seem to have a problem with certainty and science as a means to explaain what is true about nature. Science is not perfect, but it has an excellent method that is highly successful.

It doesn't matter if there was only one creature in the world.
We only know that awareness exists because we experience it .. it is not something that you can see, like an object.

I don't have to extrapolate .. it exists, so is part of the cosmos.

Yet you have been extraolating. But you seem to be pulling back on that now and agreeing with critical thinkers that because some organisms in the universe have consciosuness it does NOT mean the cosmos has consciousness.

You refer to the conclusions they make from their observations.
Their conclusions may be right or wrong.
Psychology is not an exact science like chemistry, for example.

Science has an objective ethod and it shows its work. This is the best method we have to determine what is true about the universe. Religions certainly have no objectivity, and will make claims that are not factual. Science has a minimum statistical standard of 99.95% and the social science have a standard of 95%. This is because human behavior has many variables that cannot be easily controlled. But these are both very high standards, and the standard used in religion is 0%. Religions get to state whatever they want as truth, and that its it. No tests in reality. It is critical thinkers who subject theists to account in a way similar to science, because we seek truth through facts and reason, not due to comforting tradtions of belief.

We can make observations, and draw conclusions.
Our knowledge is not static .. it is subject to change.

Right, and the best way to assure we are being truthful versus self-deceptive is to be brutally honest with ourselves. Many theists admit they mighjt be wrong about their religious beliefs, but are they committed to truth? No, they are committed to what they already believe, and can't demonstrate that they have arrived at is a sound conclusion via evidence.

You may be right, or you may be wrong.
You view it as a "scientific fact", because many scientists have drawn that conclusion.
You have faith in them being right, because you see it as entirely reasonable.

I'm not wrong. What is defined as consciousness is a product of working brains. That's it. What observations have you made to the contrary?

Myself, I have faith in science and scientists, but know they are not infallible.
..particularly when it comes to conclusions about non-material concept.
I also have faith in priests/imams, but I don't view them as infallible either.

Scientists make valid conclusions via facts and reason. Religious leaders repeat estabkished dogma.

I thought that I already had.
If I could accept that a world without a source was credible, I wouldn't have a need to seek for reasons why we are all here.
Having sought for reasons, I am satisfied that my religion has more answers than any other I have come across
Does that make it true? No.
I might be totally deluded

So you need there to be a basis for meaning, even if it isn't true?

Sorry, no can do. I am not a "seer" .. I do not know, but I believe that the One who is responsible for all we see
is able to change our lives, in all so many ways.

Just not in a way that any of us can see. Obviously we see all sorts of cases where a loving God shoulkd intervene but does not, so what would be a case where God does intervene, if ever?


.

.but whenever I start having doubts due to the cruel nature of the world, or so many people being in hell after death and so forth, so far I go round a full circle, and think "if there is no God", then what?

Then nothing. Do you really think your life will change if you no longer believe a God exists? Don't you have personal goals you are working to acheive in life?

I struggle with the problem of evil .. it is easy to say that it is a necessary, but that is not entirely satisfying as an answer, but "God doesn't exist?" .. that makes no sense at all to me, after the life I have lived as a believer.

To my thinking if a God existed it would NOT have created evil. Evil is a legitimate reason to not believe in a God. Well, you could be a deist.

That is just useless talk .. we are all capable of good and bad.
It shouldn't be a competition to feed our egos.

Did you know that 1 of every 24 people are born sociopaths? It is a brain defect, and they are incapable of feeling empathy. The reason they don;t end up in prison is because they understand cause and effect of their behavior and law. But they do well in certain jobs. For examle there is a very high number of sociopaths who are CEOs. They are good at their job because they can make decisions without any empathy, and that helps profits even at the cost of worker benefits.

We do. We see human beings in general guilty of bad behaviour.
The blame game is just throwing accusations.

Sure, you're late and you drive too fast and get a speeding ticket. Bad person. Or we lie to friends because we don't wnat to go to their party. Bad person. But it's not really all that bad when we look at what worse things humans can do. Many theists cheat on ntheir taxes and cheat on their husbands or wives. Evangelicals have among the highest divorce rates, so much for marriage being a sacred oath before God, eh?

But most people want fairness, and are fair themselves. We observe most people behave themselves even when they could get away with dishonesty. This has nothing to do with God or religion, but the way we humans evolved to be cooperative and respectful.

Ignorance is a human condition. Muslims will often blame "Kafirs" for all the evil.

Where did they learn that? From other Muslims?

..and atheists like to blame religion or believers.
It's all nonsense to me .. I see that we are all capable of evil, and there are various reasons for it.

This is not a fair and honest comparrison. I bring up the 9-11 hijackers because we all know these people were a product of religious extremism. I'm not saying all theists are extremists, so I am being fair and I allow believers to express themselves and tell their stories. My grandmother's church had a food kitchen to feed hungry people twice a week. I volunteered. They fed people and never mentioned Jesus or God. These were Christians. I have often said that I'm not a Christian, but I live like one. No one needs to believe in a God to do the right thing. Belief in God can surely authorize some to do evil. We all have our lessons to learn, and we owe it to ourselves to be honest about our path in life.

 

[TLK Valentine]

However, Adam would know what physical death was, by observing the animals dying.

What were the animals dying of?

 

[rational experiences]

I've assisted the poor been poor myself. Ive worked for the disabled human and even the Italian intellectual human disabled life....a symbolic advice.

To say I'm real.

I was shown the church father was no different in life from my own sex father. By human owned Behaviours.

I learnt.

I knew my science theist brother was in trouble. I said no one today understands his warning.

He lost his mind in stars fall. Then introduced the fall by his machine keeping his mind voided of conscious spirituality.

I was shown it in vision.

The Egyptian to Muslim to Jew history. Rome involved to European mind. Now American. Humans mind caused changed by stars fall the warning.

Warning he used said numbers are evil. I'm aware. Maths is false advice. I must thesis the science warning not using numbers.

He did.

He said we humans live in created space.

Creation exists.
Light versus dark heavens is not 12/12 numbers falsify.

He said 24/24 means no light exists just space. O time conditions.

Biology he said ours just lives in space.

So I had a good think. How do I interpret his theists science warning numbers are evil and lie. Into natural advice.

I knew gases owned density mass beginnings. In reactive space gas is density. Removes spatial emptiness itself.

We live in water mass. Volume of water mass is only in a recess U.

Stretched water owns no light and more space as a bio conscious humans expression. As compared to spirit gases our human water biology lives in no light and space.

His mind stuck controlled in constant comparisons.

Water in law life is stretched. Spatially involved.

His thesis just a warning therefore made sense by his Theists mind. A man's self given warning about why numbers lie and are false.

So I've tried to relate his advice as a natural life's teaching.

Very difficult.

Terrorism entered the minds of Americans as historic Rome causes introduced English European mind psyche to be communicated aware...yet from a position of life's safety. About Egypt technologies.

As Rome changed the transmitter relay as new technology input claiming it wouldn't fall as before. Were proven wrong as it did.

Why European man in America versus native American Indian father used two advices.

Why our American father's spirituality does assist you without your self recognition.

 

[Trailblazer]

What were the animals dying of?

Another question is why animals would be dying and allegedly humans were supposed to never die.

 

[Truthseeker]

Many people think that plants are conscious in some way.

I've read of that. It also seemed in a David Attenborough series about plants that the plants were conscious in soime way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What were the animals dying of?

Another question is why animals would be dying and allegedly humans were supposed to never die.

They too ate from the tree of knowledge and were sinners in the way Adam and Eve were.
They were more blatant about that. They did not even cover themselves with fig leaves in the way Adam and Eve did.
Trees also die. Original sin pervades the universe. Only ameba are not sinners. They are asexual.