Let’s talk about the Bible

[kjw47]

Then it is painfully obvious that now is not "the proper time" because they are still changing truths. Once they stop changing truths, we'll know it's the proper time for that truth to be revealed.

Is this correct, or does God reveal improper truths at improper times?

The light grows brighter. When God wills. So every spiritual teacher on earth taught error on those teachings until God willed--Yet only one set of teachers are making correction.

 

[Oeste]

The light grows brighter.

So God is growing in knowledge?

When God wills. So every spiritual teacher on earth taught error on those teachings until God willed--Yet only one set of teachers are making correction.

Making correction means absolutely nothing if all you are going to do is make corrections again. Either God puts the words into the Governing Boards mouth, or He does not. If they are not getting His words right then obviously they speak presumptuously on His behalf:

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deuteronomy 18​

In other words, they should be speaking the truths that God commanded them to speak, not untruths that require change.

There are two sources of light in the world kjw. There is Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and God who is the light to our feet (Psalm 119:105).

If the light the Governing Board is receives needs to get a little "brighter" and "corrected" because it has "errors" then the light is not from God, and you have no reason to fear them.

 

[savagewind]

The light grows brighter. When God wills. So every spiritual teacher on earth taught error on those teachings until God willed--Yet only one set of teachers are making correction.

The light grows brighter as a person progresses in godly wisdom. God does not make the person progress. If it is God making you progress you have to wonder why God does not make everyone progress.

 

[Oeste]

The light grows brighter as a person progresses in godly wisdom. God does not make the person progress. If it is God making you progress you have to wonder why God does not make everyone progress.

So, in light of Deuteronomy 18:18-20, is it wise to speak something that God did not put on your lips, publish it, and call it "truth"?

Or would this be someone speaking presumptuously in God’s name, who wanted to get their own truth out before adequately growing in Godly wisdom?

*I am asking this for KJW's benefit, as you already know the answer.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That’s good to know. I’ll remember it. However I do not see the JW's or the Baha'is as "completely biblically based". The JW's are certainly Watchtower based, while the Bahai's have sprinklings from various religions.

I suppose you could say that Christianity is a fusion religion as it adds marries the OT with the NT. I'm good with that. Christianity is based on a New Covenant brought by Christ. Baha'u'llah brings a New Covenant too. The OT covenant was based on Mosaic law so it was about 1,500 years between Moses and Christ. It too was over 1,800 years between the Covenants brought by Christ and Baha'u'llah.

The belief that the Baha'i Faith takes a sprinkling of different religion is one of the most common misconceptions people who know next to nothing about the Baha'i faith have.

If you believe in the bible as authoritative I'n sure you accept no other gospel except the one preached by Jesus and his apostles:

No Other Gospel

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
These passages alone eliminates any subsequent gospel message, like those of Mohammed or the Bab.

Did Christians abandon Moses? No.

Matthew 5:17-20

Baha'is believe that Islam, the Babi religion, and the Baha'i Faith are all prophesised in the book of revelation?

Individual Christians hold a variety of personal views just like any other religion, and Prejudice is a human trait that can manifest anywhere…in our homes, schools, communities, governments and churches. I’m not aware of any major Christian religion that practices or promotes anti-Semitic views

Probably out of shame in the aftermath of WWII. Christians still have major prejudices about other religions though.

Prove? I generally shy away from terms such as “prove”. I think it much better to say evidence. The greater or weightier the evidence, the more likely a particular assertion is correct.

OK, sounds like semantics to me. Provide the evidence then of Christian supremacy.

I believe “better” theology comes through sound hermeneutics and critical exegesis rather than simply proof texting with a concordance. “Proof-texting” is a great way to draw attention or show that a particular bible verse exists. Beyond that it’s not much more than an exercise in polysemy.

Better theology also comes from considering science, the experience of our lives, and comparative religion.

 

[Oeste]

The belief that the Baha'i Faith takes a sprinkling of different religion is one of the most common misconceptions people who know next to nothing about the Baha'i faith have.

That's why we have this forum Adrian. It helps clear misconceptions.

Do the Baha'i not believe the following are manifestations of God?

• Adam
• Abraham
• Moses
• Krishna
• Zoroaster
• Buddha
• Jesus Christ
• Muhammad
• The Báb
• Bahá'u'lláh

If the Baha'i believe the above are all manifestations of God, why wouldn't they import their teachings into Baha'i theology?

Probably out of shame in the aftermath of WWII. Christians still have major prejudices about other religions though.

I think it's the Nazis, Fascists and the State sponsored Shinto who carry most of the shame for World War 2. There was no choice...you either worshiped the State or off to the camp you go.

I will admit that Christians hold lots of prejudices but not just about religion. It includes people, sport teams, cultures, national origin, political parties...you name it, Christians have it.

OK, sounds like semantics to me. Provide the evidence then of Christian supremacy.

I'm not hear to argue Christian supremacy because there is no such thing as Christian supremacy. There are plenty of Christian supremacists though. My first thread may be on that very subject. Can't really decide between that and the Trinity. Either way, I'd need to clear some time, so perhaps over the Christmas holidays.

Better theology also comes from considering science, the experience of our lives, and comparative religion.

And what better way than this forum! Where else would I have an opportunity to converse with Baha'is and Witnesses?

 

[Matheusc9v9]

Yeah, amazing, but who can actually explain John's Revelation, Daniel prophecies, Jeremiah & Cia? The Christianity can't offer good answers, I think. This a just an example. The Holy Bible has lost its roots and Catholicism/Protestantism/Etc survives only as a cultural phenomenon, as Jesus said, ''to blinds and deafs''. But we can use it as a path to go deeper, of course.

-Just my thoughts, thanks for your time-

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's why we have this forum Adrian. It helps clear misconceptions.

Do the Baha'i not believe the following are manifestations of God?

• Adam
• Abraham
• Moses
• Krishna
• Zoroaster
• Buddha
• Jesus Christ
• Muhammad
• The Báb
• Bahá'u'lláh

If the Baha'i believe the above are all manifestations of God, why wouldn't they import their teachings into Baha'i theology?

That's an excellent response.

As the Covenant of Moses had become obsolete (Hebrew 8:13), Jesus established a new Covenant....unless you believe Christians are obliged to live in accordance with all 613 commandments that God commanded of the Hebrew people?

613 commandments - Wikipedia

So while Baha'is believe that God spoke through all the above men, to reveal a particular message for a certain people for a set time, we do not believe all of their Teachings apply for Eternity. So we have the transitory and eternal teachings of each religion.

Laws in regards to not eating pork were good practical advice at that time, but not needed now providing we prepare and cook meat appropriately. Animal sacrifices are part of a bygone era too.

So does Baha'u'llah pick and choose from each religion which are the universal and transient laws? No, He does not. Like Moses and Christ He brought a new revelation from God and a new Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

I think it's the Nazis, Fascists and the State sponsored Shinto who carry most of the shame for World War 2. There was no choice...you either worshiped the State or off to the camp you go.

I will admit that Christians hold lots of prejudices but not just about religion. It includes people, sport teams, cultures, national origin, political parties...you name it, Christians have it.

I don't care about who follows what sports team. If Christians were wise they would be careful about becoming too entwined with partisan politics. Thats what happened in Nazi Germany and its happened in quite a few countries since. Most cultures that have endured have some redeeming features and others that cause problems and should be modified or adandoned. It is religious prejudice that concerns me the most and if you, like me, are here to learn about other faiths and not just to teach your own, then you have a good opportunity to learn.

I'm not hear to argue Christian supremacy because there is no such thing as Christian supremacy. There are plenty of Christian supremacists though. My first thread may be on that very subject. Can't really decide between that and the Trinity. Either way, I'd need to clear some time, so perhaps over the Christmas holidays.

It is good that you acknowledge that there are Christian supremacists. Both topics you mention I started a thread. You contributed to the one on the the Divinty of Christ. Its where we first met.

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

The Divinity of Christ

And what better way than this forum! Where else would I have an opportunity to converse with Baha'is and Witnesses?

Exactly. Great to have you here.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, amazing, but who can actually explain John's Revelation, Daniel prophecies, Jeremiah & Cia? The Christianity can't offer good answers, I think. This a just an example. The Holy Bible has lost its roots and Catholicism/Protestantism/Etc survives only as a cultural phenomenon, as Jesus said, ''to blinds and deafs''. But we can use it as a path to go deeper, of course.

-Just my thoughts, thanks for your time-

Good to have you here and welcome to RF. I'm happy to discuss Daniel, revelation, and Jeremiah with you. I agree Christianity has lost its roots.

What's Cia?

 

[Dawnofhope]

We are still in the church age.Once this ends scriptural attention focuses on the Jews, but if you see the 3rd temple being built, all bets are off!

I presume you are referring to Ezekiel. There is no need for this as Ezekiel's vision predates the second temple. Besides the third temple with be the lamb Himself (A Messianic reference).
Revelation 21:22

 

[Matheusc9v9]

Good to have you here and welcome to RF. I'm happy to discuss Daniel, revelation, and Jeremiah with you. I agree Christianity has lost its roots.

What's Cia?

Hi and thank you!

First, Cia means Company (''Jeremiah and the others'') or Etc, I thought it was also used in English, but not, thanks.

These books are on another level. Of course, not everything is darkness, and I believe it is a possible job to fully comprehend that words. I like to hear what everyone have to say, and Gnostics (Samael Aun Weor), Theosophy (H.P.B.), the Kabbalists, and others, claim to have the Key. So I'm studying their work, seeing what these persons have to say, and after that, I'll feel more ''aware'' to read our prophets.

I can see you have a lot of information, I would like to discuss these books with you in the future. And I need to know more about the Baha'i faith, ''The peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. — Bahá'u'lláh''. Phantastic ^^
Thanks, see ya!

 

[Oeste]

So while Baha'is believe that God spoke through all the above men, to reveal a particular message for a certain people for a set time, we do not believe all of their Teachings apply for Eternity. So we have the transitory and eternal teachings of each religion.

I think most Christians would consider this anathema as it runs afoul of scripture:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35)

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
(Matthew 5:18)​

So does Baha'u'llah pick and choose from each religion which are the universal and transient laws? No, He does not. Like Moses and Christ He brought a new revelation from God and a new Covenant.

Except Christian revelation is closed. There is no new scripture being produced and no one to seek but Christ.

I don't care about who follows what sports team.

Yech...that not only sounds unAmerican...it sounds almost inhuman!

If Christians were wise they would be careful about becoming too entwined with partisan politics.

Agreed.

Christians by definition follow Christ, not a political party. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state in this country. Everyone has this ideal of what the country would (or should) look like if we blurred the lines when in actuality it would open Pandora's box to crazy...we already have Satanists requesting equal opportunity to counter nativity scenes.

It is religious prejudice that concerns me the most and if you, like me, are here to learn about other faiths and not just to teach your own, then you have a good opportunity to learn.

If it hadn't been for a rather prejudicial and (IMO) hypocritical Watchtower article left on my doorstep suggesting "Christendom" tolerated child abuse and would soon be "destroyed" I probably would not be on this forum.

It is good that you acknowledge that there are Christian supremacists.

It might be better to say there are supremacists who say they are Christian. In any event, we also have supremacist religions when only God is supreme.

Both topics you mention I started a thread. You contributed to the one on the the Divinty of Christ. Its where we first met.

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

The Divinity of Christ

LOL, well I'm sure we had a lively discussion. I'll take a look as soon as I get some time.

Exactly. Great to have you here.

Ditto

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think most Christians would consider this anathema as it runs afoul of scripture:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35)

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
(Matthew 5:18)

My understanding of these verses is that God's guidance will always be with us.

It can not possibly be taken literally. For example consider this story recorded in Numbers 15:32-36

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Should such a law be applicable today? God has endowed us with the faculty of reason and intelligence so we may be freed of superstitions and misunderstandings.

Except Christian revelation is closed. There is no new scripture being produced and no one to seek but Christ.

Since when does man get to declare the hands of God are tied and His revelation and guidance to is loved ones is stilled?

Yech...that not only sounds unAmerican...it sounds almost inhuman!

Of course lol. I am not an American but from New Zealand. I do follow the All-blacks somewhat. I don't pray for the success of my country's rugby team though.

Agreed.

Christians by definition follow Christ, not a political party. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state in this country. Everyone has this ideal of what the country would (or should) look like if we blurred the lines when in actuality it would open Pandora's box to crazy...we already have Satanists requesting equal opportunity to counter nativity scenes.

Political correctness gone crazy no doubt.

Interestingly God provided to the Jewish peoples a theocracy or a Nation state run in accordance to God's laws. Christianity used to be a theocracy of sorts under the Catholic church. Islam had their theocracy too. The problem has been that all these theocracies have become corrupted, so it certainly is best to have separation of church and state under such circumstances. However God did promise that is laws and rule would be established for the world and enable peace.
Isaiah 2:2-5
Isaiah 9:6-7

If it hadn't been for a rather prejudicial and (IMO) hypocritical Watchtower article left on my doorstep suggesting "Christendom" tolerated child abuse and would soon be "destroyed" I probably would not be on this forum.

The JWs are in a sense the antithesis of what the Baha'is are about. They are an exclusive division of exclusive Christianity. Baha'is are inclusive worldwide faith community and we are encouraged to consort with peoples of all Faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship.

It might be better to say there are supremacists who say they are Christian. In any event, we also have supremacist religions when only God is supreme.

It is human nature for us to think we have the best religion. The Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus all do it. I think my religion is the best too. However, I don't believe I'm better than anyone else. Jesus counselled He who is greatest is least and the one who is first will later be last.

LOL, well I'm sure we had a lively discussion. I'll take a look as soon as I get some time.

I started posting on RF about one year ago. For the first few months I did not specify my religion so you would not have known I was a Baha'i when we spoke.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi and thank you!

First, Cia means Company (''Jeremiah and the others'') or Etc, I thought it was also used in English, but not, thanks.

These books are on another level. Of course, not everything is darkness, and I believe it is a possible job to fully comprehend that words. I like to hear what everyone have to say, and Gnostics (Samael Aun Weor), Theosophy (H.P.B.), the Kabbalists, and others, claim to have the Key. So I'm studying their work, seeing what these persons have to say, and after that, I'll feel more ''aware'' to read our prophets.

I can see you have a lot of information, I would like to discuss these books with you in the future. And I need to know more about the Baha'i faith, ''The peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. — Bahá'u'lláh''. Phantastic ^^
Thanks, see ya!

Nice to hear from you. When ever you are ready I am happy to answer any questions about the Holy Bible you may have.

Here is a little about the Baha'i faith.

What Bahá’ís Believe | The Bahá’í Faith

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

 

[kjw47]

So God is growing in knowledge?



Making correction means absolutely nothing if all you are going to do is make corrections again. Either God puts the words into the Governing Boards mouth, or He does not. If they are not getting His words right then obviously they speak presumptuously on His behalf:

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deuteronomy 18​

In other words, they should be speaking the truths that God commanded them to speak, not untruths that require change.

There are two sources of light in the world kjw. There is Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and God who is the light to our feet (Psalm 119:105).

If the light the Governing Board is receives needs to get a little "brighter" and "corrected" because it has "errors" then the light is not from God, and you have no reason to fear them.

The light grows brighter to make sure this truth is a truth-Daniel 12:4--God hid some truths--even his angels didn't know them but desired to-1Peter 1:12)-- It kept satan and his angels in spiritual darkness.

 

[kjw47]

The light grows brighter as a person progresses in godly wisdom. God does not make the person progress. If it is God making you progress you have to wonder why God does not make everyone progress.

They outright refuse to repent, that is why he leaves them to the darkness. Few on earth even bothered to learn all that Jesus taught and apply it. I know for fact, in every trinity religion I attended years ago--they did not teach what Jesus taught, those teachers are paid to teach their religions brand of dogma. The teachings of Jesus expose all of them.

 

[savagewind]

They outright refuse to repent, that is why he leaves them to the darkness. Few on earth even bothered to learn all that Jesus taught and apply it. I know for fact, in every trinity religion I attended years ago--they did not teach what Jesus taught, those teachers are paid to teach their religions brand of dogma. The teachings of Jesus expose all of them.

Why do you do that? Someone says something and you say, "trinity".
You said that God makes the light brighter.
God does not make the light brighter. As a person gets closer to the light it appears TO HIM brighter. Getting closer to God is what makes the light brighter.
Individuals get closer. Not groups going as one.

 

[metis]

I know for fact, in every trinity religion I attended years ago--they did not teach what Jesus taught,

Oh, so they didn't teach about "love thy neighbor"? love of God? acting morally? praying to God? acting out of compassion for all?

What kind of places did you walk into? opium dens? topless bars? KKK meetings?

 

[Riders]

I'm having a disagreement with the OP.It says most all ancient writings the bibles age were all destroyed the bible is the only one that survived.

Now if I research the age of Buddhist Suttas the Bhagavad Gita and the Quaran:

I will find that they are not ancient but fairly new as you said correct? Those aren't ancient writings?

 

[Riders]

Aha!Both Buddhist and Hindu writings are dated to around 200 BC.Apparently the original post is wrong.

There are some ancient texts that are religious that survived along with the bible.

So the bible is not unique.