Let’s talk about the Bible

[Kemosloby]

I do not really see anything above to disagree with except for maybe your claim that Luther's roll was specifically as Tyndale's successor. However can you show that either of the two claims I made has a flaw?



Here I don't agree with you.

1. I think Luther was sincere when he challenged the Catholic church and his actions are completely consistent with that. I also consider his body of work comparable with any in the protestant movement.
2. I and most laymen theologians and apologists have heard of William Tyndale.

Planted as Tyndale's successor by those who burned Tyndale at the stake...

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hello Adrian, you are right to suggest that revelations is hard to get a handle on. Eschatology contains so much cryptic language and apocalyptic imagery that it is hard to know what to make out of it.

However the most consistent, logical, and encompassing interpretation I have ever heard is that of a man named Wallid Shoebat. He is a former Muslim and PLO terrorist turned Christian eschatology expert. I strongly advise you to read him or watch one of his presentations on UTUBE.

Hi Robin, nice to hear from you. Interesting guy your Wallid Shoebat. The Baha'is also associate the beast in revelation (and Daniel) with Islam. The Caliphate of the Umayyad dynasty, followed by the Abbasids, then Ottomans occupied enormous amounts of territory and encompassed the Holy land for much of the period from the seventh to the twentieth century. Jerusalem was recaptured for a while during one of the Christian crusades when most of the Muslim inhabitants were massacred, but I suppose they weren't too happy with Islam's successes along with the enormous misery they caused over many centuries.

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

Abdu'l-Baha gave a series of talks to Baha'is from a Christian background during the early twentieth century while resident in the Holy land. He was banished and imprisoned there under the Ottomans for a good portion of his life. Neither the Persians, nor Ottomans were too keen on the Baha'is and together over a 75 year period did their utmost to eradicate us from the face of the earth. We're still persecuted in some Islamic countries to this day. You may be interested to read Abdu'l-Baha's commentary on the twelve chapter of revelation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

 

[Dawnofhope]

No! Two different opinions. I think you are right
What you have described can be called "anti-christ".

Cool. We have something in common. I'm never too sure where people are coming from when they start talking about the anti-christ or satan.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why trust AND confidence?
If you are trusting someone other than God and he says "go this way", but God does not say, "don't" you will go the way of the one in whom you trust.
Confidence, on the other hand, is to respect a person for the way he goes just like you want to be respected for your way. It doesn't have to lead to being led by him. It might. Trust should always induce a person to be led.

Trust is giving power to the one who is being trusted.

Trust is firm. Confidence can be easily shaken.

If people would just put confidence in those taking the lead, the bad ones who want to lead instead of God would be defeated.

Because they want the honor of real trust. So, they can get what they want.

Confidence in others just makes peace.

It's just like the difference between like and love. Like is something that can easily wane. Real love should be forever.

If you put your trust in someone who proves to be untrustworthy, then you were wrong.
If you put your confidence in someone who proves disloyal, then you did the best you could. You weren't wrong.

So, I believe I should, and I have, put my confidence in other humans.
I see it as respectful and a helper.

Trust, on the other hand, does not help because it puts weight on the one trusted.

I don't want weight on me.

Do you want weight put on you?

I think I'm projecting my positive experience as a Baha'i for nearly 30 years. I used to be a Christian. Our governing bodies are elected spiritual assemblies. Every year we elect nine people who best combine the qualities of selfless devotion, mature experience, a well trained mind, unquestioned loyalty, and recognised ability to represent our faith community. It is only the assembly itself, and not the individuals in it that carry authority. We are required to humbly consult with community members before making decisions that would affect everyone.

Some Christian leaders can certainly be inclined to power and control issues as we all can, but then there are some very worth individuals in those roles too.

So I would be very careful who I trust. Eventually we are all responsible for our own lives anyhow.

 

[Oeste]

It is Christ who does the saving, not Christians, and it is the angels who separate wheat from tare, again not a job for Christians.

It isn't for the Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists.

Correct!

Just as it isn’t for Christians to separate wheat from tare, neither is it for Muslim, Hindus or Buddhists to do God's separating work either.

Exactly, I'm all for sound doctrine. What Faith group makes a claim for unsound doctrine?

There are many faith groups who make claim to unsound doctrine:

The Westboro Baptist Church claims “God hates ****” which is unsound doctrine.

Christian Identity claims God hates Black and Jews which is unsound doctrine.

ISIS claims God desires His followers to blow "infidels" up on planes and run them over with trucks which is unsound doctrine.

Aum Shinrikyo claimed God desired trains in Tokyo be attacked with nerve gas which is unsound doctrine.

Early church leaders claimed we needed a crusade to take liberate Jerusalem from Islam which was unsound doctrine.

The Watchtower claimed all earthly governments and religions (except their own) would be utterly destroyed in 1914, which was unsound doctrine.

The list goes on and on.

What God requires of humanity changes from age to age. Moses brought the law for the Hebrew people to prepare them to take over the land of Canaan and eventually to create a nation based on Gods law. Christ enabled these reworked teachings along with new ones to be spread throughout the world which was achieved in the nineteenth century. Baha'u'llah brought new Teachings for this day that are applicable to the age we live in now. Moses, Christ, and Baha'u'llah all brought salvation to Their people.

I can agree with some but not all of your statement. The missionary work still goes on and will not be achieved until the end of the church age and, as you may suspect, I believe Baha'u'llah preaches a radically different gospel from Christianity.

Jesus stated “Tetelestai” one of the most critically important statements in the Christian New Testament, literally “It is finished”. Since the work is done it requires no extra help or contribution on our part because there is nothing we can do to save ourselves except but to believe and allow the gospel message into our lives.

Since Jesus death on the cross brought salvation for mankind I see no need to seek salvation from or through anyone else.

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)​

For Witnesses: Note it says "...the living God" and not "...a living God".

My purpose on entering this thread however was to acknowledge an excellent OP that brings attention to one of the most outstanding and influential compositions of sacred writings in history.

I thought @Vee did a good job also. I just couldn’t reconcile her OP that the bible survived and was well preserved with Watchtower declarations that all 5800 extant manuscripts were successfully corrupted and altered nearly 2000 years ago without leaving any evidence or trace.

 

[Oeste]

When the Baha'i receive a knock on their door and are handed a magazine that states God will soon destroy the Baha'i religion, faith and all of it adherents (along with all other "false religions" except their own),

Just to winnow and clarify what Oeste stated.....he said that we teach 'all adherents (of false religion) will be destroyed'. That is a strawman. We don't teach that, only the organizations themselves will be eliminated, by the governments.

I appreciate your effort to politely soft peddle the Watchtower message here, but your Organization teaches exactly what I stated…that the Baha’I religion, faith and its adherents will be destroyed at Armageddon along with every other religion but your own.

In a discussion of Zechariah 13:4, it was stated:

In that day each of the prophets will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; and they will not wear an official garment of hair in order to deceive.—Zech. 13:4.
Will the destruction of the religions of Babylon the Great result in the death of all the former members of those religions? Apparently not. Some of the clergy will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions. (Zech. 13:5, 6)​

​

I think we need to read carefully what the Watchtower is saying here HockeyCowboy, winnowing out what was said and what was not said, so we can "clarify" the actual meaning here.

According to the Watchtower, it is only the clergy who “…will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions” that may have a shot of surviving Armageddon.

Someone who abandons a faith and denies they were ever a member is, by definition, not an adherent of that faith!

So, according to the Watchtower, the Baha’I religion, faith, and its adherents will be destroyed in the same manner Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and all other “false religions” are destroyed.

I presented no "strawman" and the assertion stands.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I appreciate your effort to politely soft peddle the Watchtower message here, but your Organization teaches exactly what I stated…that the Baha’I religion, faith and its adherents will be destroyed at Armageddon along with every other religion but your own.

​

I think we need to read carefully what the Watchtower is saying here HockeyCowboy, winnowing out what was said and what was not said, so we can "clarify" the actual meaning here.

According to the Watchtower, it is only the clergy who “…will abandon their religious course and deny that they were ever part of those false religions” that may have a shot of surviving Armageddon.

Someone who abandons a faith and denies they were ever a member is, by definition, not an adherent of that faith!

So, according to the Watchtower, the Baha’I religion, faith, and its adherents will be destroyed in the same manner Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and all other “false religions” are destroyed.

I presented no "strawman" and the assertion stands.

We teach from the Bible that the government members of the U.N. will turn on and destroy religion (according to the book of Daniel, beasts are governments), I doubt they'd kill their citizens.

And that's not Armageddon,..... Armageddon is the conflict between human governments and God's Kingdom.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Correct!

Just as it isn’t for Christians to separate wheat from tare, neither is it for Muslim, Hindus or Buddhists to do God's separating work either.

The point I was making was in reference to your exclusive theology, where you have the One True God that is loving and just, yet sends people to hell because they are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and not your kind of Christian. I think you knew that but avoided spelling it out.
John 14:6

There are many faith groups who make claim to unsound doctrine:

The Westboro Baptist Church claims “God hates ****” which is unsound doctrine.

Christian Identity claims God hates Black and Jews which is unsound doctrine.

ISIS claims God desires His followers to blow "infidels" up on planes and run them over with trucks which is unsound doctrine.

Aum Shinrikyo claimed God desired trains in Tokyo be attacked with nerve gas which is unsound doctrine.

Early church leaders claimed we needed a crusade to take liberate Jerusalem from Islam which was unsound doctrine.

The Watchtower claimed all earthly governments and religions (except their own) would be utterly destroyed in 1914, which was unsound doctrine.

The list goes on and on.

The point is that nobody deliberately follows a false doctrine. So while I would see all of the above as being false, I would see your doctrine as false on account of its exclusivity, while you see mine as false because....well it just doesn't tick all your boxes?

I can agree with some but not all of your statement. The missionary work still goes on and will not be achieved until the end of the church age and, as you may suspect, I believe Baha'u'llah preaches a radically different gospel from Christianity.

Jesus stated “Tetelestai” one of the most critically important statements in the Christian New Testament, literally “It is finished”. Since the work is done it requires no extra help or contribution on our part because there is nothing we can do to save ourselves except but to believe and allow the gospel message into our lives.

Since Jesus death on the cross brought salvation for mankind I see no need to seek salvation from or through anyone else.

For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)
For Witnesses: Note it says "...the living God" and not "...a living God".

That's how the Jews felt about Christ. He preached a radically different truth, and they crucified Him. So in a world that is radically different from the time of Christ when slavery, male domination, and empires were the norm, is it any surprise that the Messiah today brings a new Covenant?
Jeremiah 31:31-34

I thought @Vee did a good job also. I just couldn’t reconcile her OP that the bible survived and was well preserved with Watchtower declarations that all 5800 extant manuscripts were successfully corrupted and altered nearly 2000 years ago without leaving any evidence or trace.

I see no difference between @Vee 's JW doctrine and yours. They are both right and they are both wrong.

Both @Hockeycowboy and you in your own way and felt compelled to tell me of the error of my ways, but you seem blind to your own.
Matthew 7:1-4
But its all good, because I'm blind too.

 

[savagewind]

I doubt they'd kill their citizens.

Genesis 6:7
Genesis 19:15
Revelation 11:18

Do you know how the Watchtower condemns the people who pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe about what the Bible teaches?

Are you not doing the same thing?

 

[savagewind]

And that's not Armageddon,..... Armageddon is the conflict between human governments and God's Kingdom.

Have you considered yet that it means all human governments, not only secular ones? Does the doctrine of the Watchtower not govern you? It does. It is a government.

 

[metis]

We teach from the Bible that the government members of the U.N. will turn on and destroy religion (according to the book of Daniel, beasts are governments), I doubt they'd kill their citizens.

The Bible never mentions or implies anything about the U.N., and false claims like this have existed for centuries, including with the JW's and their false predictions. And then instead of admitting their wrong, they double-down by inventing stories that are virtually impossible to verify in any way.

 

[1robin]

Planted as Tyndale's successor by those who burned Tyndale at the stake...

I can partially accept that. However in his first formal debate against Catholic authorities (at the diet of Worms I believe) it was Huss he was compared with. Can you accept that Luther himself sincerely challenged the Catholic church and translated the bible irrespective of Tyndale? Luther never attempted to ride anyone's coat tails and had many complaints against both his predecessors and contemporary reformers. Luther was simply being Luther.

 

[1robin]

The Bible never mentions or implies anything about the U.N., and false claims like this have existed for centuries, including with the JW's and their false predictions. And then instead of admitting their wrong, they double-down by inventing stories that are virtually impossible to verify in any way.

To my shock and amazement I actually agree with you.

 

[Kemosloby]

I can partially accept that. However in his first formal debate against Catholic authorities (at the diet of Worms I believe) it was Huss he was compared with. Can you accept that Luther himself sincerely challenged the Catholic church and translated the bible irrespective of Tyndale? Luther never attempted to ride anyone's coat tails and had many complaints against both his predecessors and contemporary reformers. Luther was simply being Luther.

If Martin Luther was the Alex Jones of his day he would seem to be against the system all the while dropping the ball on key issues.

 

[metis]

To my shock and amazement I actually agree with you.

Hey, you must be getting more intelligent with age.

 

[kjw47]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the Watchtower "correctly" explained Revelation.

I find their explanation of Revelation no more "correct" than their explanation of Daniel.

Their prophesy of a 1914 Armageddon, which was based on Astrological calculations and Pyramidology never came to pass, and neither did their prophesy of a 1925 resurrection:

1. 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)
2. 'No doubt Satan believed the Millennial Kingdom was due to be set-up in 1915...Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated.' (Studies In The Scriptures, Vol 7, The Finished Mystery, p. 128)
   
3. When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)
4. "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
5. "...this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years.... This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble...." (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition. The 1916 edition changed it to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years...")

Let's remember our scripture:

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed (Deuteronomy 18:22)​

1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder , 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.…(Deuteronomy 13)​

Remember, the Watchtower claims Jesus is another God, (whom would have been unknown to the Jews at this time) who we must all serve but not worship. We cannot worship nor serve any other God but one. If Jesus came along and said "Serve me, another God" the Jews would have picked up rocks to stone him.

But gee, what if they get a prophesy "half right"? Does that mean they've been chosen by God?

No.

Getting a prophesy "half right", "half wrong", or even "fully right" does not indicate special favor from God as explicitly shown at Deuteronomy 13:2 (above).

Also, we have the apostle Paul's testimony at Acts 16:16

Once, as we were going to the place of prayer, we met a slave girl who had a spirit of fortune-telling and who had brought her owners a great deal of money by predicting the future. ​

Obviously Paul and Silas were unimpressed with this slave girl's fortune telling abilities, even though she had a proven ability to get things "correct".

I hve studied all sides carefully for years. There is 0 doubt in all creation--The JW teachers are correct. The teachings of Jesus prove it And the facts of history.

 

[kjw47]

And can you please explain how you say you believe in Jesus, who said "judge ye not", and yet we see you doing just that above? Even Paul was unwilling to judge himself, and yet you believe you have the power to judge others.

I didn't judge, I stated facts.

 

[metis]

I didn't judge, I stated facts.

And you lie as you clearly do judge others even though Jesus and Paul taught you not to do so.

It's increasing clear that you far more believe in what your JW teachers would have you believe than in what Jesus and Paul taught you to believe, so maybe remember that when you claim you really believe in them and the Bible next time.

IOW, stop judging others.

 

[Oeste]

We teach from the Bible that the government members of the U.N. will turn on and destroy religion (according to the book of Daniel, beasts are governments), I doubt they'd kill their citizens.

That is what you teach but I don’t believe it’s from the bible, also what you teach now isn’t always what you’ve taught.

Also, how the Watchtower claims the United Nations will soon destroy Judaism in Israel, Islam in Iran, Hinduism in India, Christianity in the United States, and Buddhism in Cambodia…let alone all religions world-wide…is beyond me. It would certainly be interesting to get your perspective on that.

For instance, if the UN is going to destroy all "false religions" does that mean the UN will soon be seized by atheists, and wouldn't every government that is a UN member have to be seized by atheists also? Also, if the UN sets itself up as an atheistic "true religion" wouldn't it be false, necessitating the United Nations destroy itself in accordance with bible prophesy?

 

[Oeste]

The point I was making was in reference to your exclusive theology, where you have the One True God that is loving and just, yet sends people to hell because they are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and not your kind of Christian. I think you knew that but avoided spelling it out.

I think your reading a peculiar meaning into my posts that just isn't there.

I've already spelled out Christians will not be separating wheat from tare. Neither will Buddhist, Hindus, Muslim nor any "...not my kind of Christian" which I suppose encompasses any "...not my kind of atheist" either.

It doesn't matter how I see things or how other see things, but how God sees things. As a Christian I believe how God sees things is pretty well laid out in the bible.

John 14:6

Well there you go! That is exactly how I see it. Jesus will do the judging. Those that profess Jesus (in their heart and not simply by their mouth, see Matthew 7:23) will escape judgment. Those that do not enter into judgment.

Entering into judgment does not mean you've earned a first class ticket to hell. That is determined by whether your name is entered into the book of life. I've mentioned this to you before:

In any event, to answer your question, only Jesus can say who is saved and who is not. I believe in order to be saved your name must be written in the book of life. If you want an assurance of salvation, then you should be born again.

If it were only Christians entering heaven Moses, Daniel and all the prophets would be condemned as well. Your quote of John 14:6 leads me to believe you already knew this but for some reason didn't want to spell it out.

The point is that nobody deliberately follows a false doctrine.

I disagree with this. The Nazis had a false doctrine of racial purity. It didn't matter whether the doctrine was true or false, it only mattered that it could serve the Nazis. In other words, and from their perspective: "If something we say is true great, but if its false, who cares?"

We've seen this in our elections as well. If you're an ideologue you'll quickly adopt and follow any doctrine, rumor or teaching that supports your ideology.

In order to accept your assertion that "...nobody deliberately follow a false doctrine" I would have to ascribe altruistic intrinsic qualities like veracity and character to folks who simply may not have any.

while you see mine as false because....well it just doesn't tick all your boxes?

The Baha'i add to scripture even though we've been explicitly told not to add or subtract anything from scripture. (Deuteronomy 4:6, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22;18-19)

So while I would see all of the above as being false, I would see your doctrine as false on account of its exclusivity,

Well let's make sure you have my doctrines correct then.

I believe the Christian bible contains the word of God. Any other book contains the world of God to the extent it agrees with the bible. Thus, I see the bible as authoritative.

I believe Jesus is God (John 1:1, John 1:3, Isaiah 44:24), and it is God who is our Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Luke 2:11), and it is God who will be our judge (John 14:6, Isaiah 33:22).

This precluded Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists or anyone else from marching up and down the aisles of any church, temple or mosque and pointing out who is saved and who is not. It also precludes them from pointing at the church, temple, or mosque across the street and determining their judgment as well.

This does NOT mean I believe in an "anything goes" doctrine. In other words, any Satanist can stick a cross on a building and proclaim their members Christian. Matthew 7:23 makes this clear.

I believe to have assurance of salvation you should be born again.

That's how the Jews felt about Christ. He preached a radically different truth, and they crucified Him. So in a world that is radically different from the time of Christ when slavery, male domination, and empires were the norm, is it any surprise that the Messiah today brings a new Covenant?

What is no surprise is that there are many churches claiming new Messiahs. Besides, there is Matthew 24:23-25 to contend with:

23 “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.​

I see no difference between @Vee 's JW doctrine and yours. They are both right and they are both wrong.

Both @Hockeycowboy and you in your own way and felt compelled to tell me of the error of my ways, but you seem blind to your own.

Well, you certainly felt compelled to declare the Trinity false with your very first post on this thread. Statements like that are almost guaranteed to garner a response.

Matthew 7:1-4
But its all good, because I'm blind too.

Excellent Adrian! That is good bible counsel. Remember, we all see now in shadows, as through a glass darkly (1 Corinthians 13:12).

But this doesn't mean we're helpless to determine truth from fiction. For instance, we can take the same approach as the Bereans (Acts 17:11) to determine what is so, just like we're doing now.