Let’s talk about the Bible

[Dawnofhope]

You make some very good points. Unfortunately many so called Christians have done more evil than good, dragging down the image of the Bible and God.
The Bible is not easy to understand. It requires deep study. But today there is a lot of information available and many study tools that can help us understand better what those sometimes really weird bible texts mean.

I think the JWs have put a lot of work into more closely studying the bible and that is a good thing. I am a Baha'i from a Christian background so believe in the same God, bible, and Jesus as the Christians.

The Christians on RF seem to be struggling somewhat. They lack cohesion as a group which is not surprising given all the sects and the antipathy that exists between some of them. I'm not sure to what extent the Jehovah Witnesses remedy that problem or aggravate it.

I don't find the bible too difficult to understand, but then again, I grew up with Christianity and spent many years talking to Christians.

 

[savagewind]

They lack cohesion as a group which is not surprising given all the sects and the antipathy that exists between some of them. I'm not sure to what extent the Jehovah Witnesses remedy that problem or aggravate it.
.

They aggravate it. They say that we are for the satan just because we are not for them.
I am not pleased.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the remedy is that all people believe as they do.

Which is really, really strange because they have changed their stance on some things and they reserve the right to do it again.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the remedy is that all people believe as they do.

Which is really, really strange because they have changed their stance on some things and they reserve the right to do it again.

So the JWs are wolves in sheep's clothing?

You may be right, but they certainly know their bible.

How can Christianity hope to unite a world if they are themselves in disarray?

 

[Oeste]

Then how do you explain out of say 33,000 religions claiming to be Christian--ALL explained Rev--yet only one is correct--WHY? Only the one that came back here in these last days--the rest are in darkness.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the Watchtower "correctly" explained Revelation.

I find their explanation of Revelation no more "correct" than their explanation of Daniel.

Their prophesy of a 1914 Armageddon, which was based on Astrological calculations and Pyramidology never came to pass, and neither did their prophesy of a 1925 resurrection:

1. 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)
2. 'No doubt Satan believed the Millennial Kingdom was due to be set-up in 1915...Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated.' (Studies In The Scriptures, Vol 7, The Finished Mystery, p. 128)
   
3. When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)
4. "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)
5. "...this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years.... This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble...." (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition. The 1916 edition changed it to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years...")

Let's remember our scripture:

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed (Deuteronomy 18:22)​

1"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder , 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.…(Deuteronomy 13)​

Remember, the Watchtower claims Jesus is another God, (whom would have been unknown to the Jews at this time) who we must all serve but not worship. We cannot worship nor serve any other God but one. If Jesus came along and said "Serve me, another God" the Jews would have picked up rocks to stone him.

But gee, what if they get a prophesy "half right"? Does that mean they've been chosen by God?

No.

Getting a prophesy "half right", "half wrong", or even "fully right" does not indicate special favor from God as explicitly shown at Deuteronomy 13:2 (above).

Also, we have the apostle Paul's testimony at Acts 16:16

Once, as we were going to the place of prayer, we met a slave girl who had a spirit of fortune-telling and who had brought her owners a great deal of money by predicting the future. ​

Obviously Paul and Silas were unimpressed with this slave girl's fortune telling abilities, even though she had a proven ability to get things "correct".

 

[savagewind]

So the JWs are wolves in sheep's clothing?

I do not know.

You may be right, but they certainly know their bible.

They know what it says. It is my strong opinion that they don't know what it means.

How can Christianity hope to unite a world if they are themselves in disarray?

I fear that the world can only be united when there isn't enough life on Earth to sustain anyone.
The end is the only thing that can unite people.
We have classes of people united. Classes will unite only when absolutely necessary.
The world could have done it by wisdom, but I think it is too late. Just look at them!
There is another species of mankind developing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I do not know.

They know what it says. It is my strong opinion that they don't know what it means.


I fear that the world can only be united when there isn't enough life on Earth to sustain anyone.
The end is the only thing that can unite people.
We have classes of people united. Classes will unite only when absolutely necessary.
The world could have done it by wisdom, but I think it is too late. Just look at them!
There is another species of mankind developing.

It sounds like you have had an intensely negative first hand experience with the JWs, but it is not healthy to dwell too long and hard about such matters.

What seems more important is to find a way to live in peace and happiness with the way the world is now. I get the feeling you haven't found that yet.

 

[savagewind]

It sounds like you have had an intensely negative first hand experience with the JWs,

From that post? LOL

but it is not healthy to dwell too long and hard about such matters.

What are "such matters"?

What seems more important is to find a way to live in peace and happiness with the way the world is now. I get the feeling you haven't found that yet.

Really? I have not thought the same about you.

 

[savagewind]

It sounds like you have had an intensely negative first hand experience with the JWs, but it is not healthy to dwell too long and hard about such matters.

What seems more important is to find a way to live in peace and happiness with the way the world is now. I get the feeling you haven't found that yet.

Do you have a car? Do you have one of these?

 

[savagewind]

Maybe lots and lots and lots of people can see peace and happiness only in people who think the same way as they do.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Maybe lots and lots and lots of people can see peace and happiness only in people who think the same way as they do.

I don't know about the bumper sticker but there are many wonderful people in all Faith communities as well as those who have none. Humanity has come a long way in the last 200 years. We have a long way to go, but I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

 

[Oeste]

Add to that man made doctrines such as the trinity, where Christians appear to have misunderstood their own sacred texts.

An update is long overdue.

I think Christians understand their sacred texts pretty well. There are millions of Christians who do not however, most of them joining religions formed after the "Great Disappointment". Many of these post Millerite religions added their own "updates" in direct opposition to scripture (Revelation 22:18-19, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30: 5-6).

In fact, it's hard to find a Unitarian religion that doesn't attack scripture as unreliable or corrupted in some form.

So the JWs are wolves in sheep's clothing?

You may be right, but they certainly know their bible.

With all due respect Adrian, I have to ask:

When the Baha'i receive a knock on their door and are handed a magazine that states God will soon destroy the Baha'i religion, faith and all of it adherents (along with all other "false religions" except their own), do they consider this an area where Witnesses "...certainly know their bible", or would they consider this an area where they need a tad more study?

 

[savagewind]

I don't know about the bumper sticker but there are many wonderful people in all Faith communities as well as those who have none. Humanity has come a long way in the last 200 years. We have a long way to go, but I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

What are "such matters"? You said it.

 

[savagewind]

such matters.

What are such matters? Disagreements?

 

[savagewind]

I do not know how people keep saying that how I was treated by the Jehovah's Witnesses has much to do with disagreeing with them about the Bible.

How are the two reconciled? You think I am making up **** just because I do not like them?
Does it seem that I don't like them? I like them as much as I like anyone else.

I disagree with their interpretation of scripture.
THEY say if other people will not obey scripture like they obey it those people will die.
I say they are wrong and YOU and THEY say I have some kind of unrighteous matter regarding them.

Can someone please explain it to me?

Can you, @adrian009 ?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I do not know how people keep saying that how I was treated by the Jehovah's Witnesses has much to do with disagreeing with them about the Bible.

How are the two reconciled? You think I am making up **** just because I do not like them?
Does it seem that I don't like them? I like them as much as I like anyone else.

I disagree with their interpretation of scripture.
THEY say if other people will not obey scripture like they obey it those people will die.
I say they are wrong and YOU and THEY say I have some kind of unrighteous matter regarding them.

Can someone please explain it to me?

Can you, @adrian009 ?

Thanks for explaining that.

So what are the problems you have with their interpretation of scripture?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think Christians understand their sacred texts pretty well. There are millions of Christians who do not however, most of them joining religions formed after the "Great Disappointment". Many of these post Millerite religions added their own "updates" in direct opposition to scripture (Revelation 22:18-19, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30: 5-6).

In fact, it's hard to find a Unitarian religion that doesn't attack scripture as unreliable or corrupted in some form.

That's a rather uncharitable criticism of your fellow Christians. The JWs are part of your Faith, not mine.

With all due respect Adrian, I have to ask:

When the Baha'i receive a knock on their door and are handed a magazine that states God will soon destroy the Baha'i religion, faith and all of it adherents (along with all other "false religions" except their own), do they consider this an area where Witnesses "...certainly know their bible", or would they consider this an area where they need a tad more study?

I've usually had friendly discussions with the JWs who come knocking at my door. I suppose they haven't had the heart to tell me that my religion is false as yet.

On the other hand I've had a few supposedly more mainstream Christians warn me of the error of my ways.

How about your biblically correct version of Christianity? Is it only the Christians who are saved? ....or perhaps only certain Christians with correct Christian belief?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My questions would be:

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

The Bible is popular
Millions of people know it
It has a lot of history, mythology, analogy, and parables
The children's bible is actually a good read

but then

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

Although it's an incredible story, what I wonder more is:

1. If the bible disappeared, would Christ?

2. Which is the Word: Christ or Scripture?

3. What is the difference between seeing the bible as sacred and Christ as sacred? Can you live without one in favor of the other? If not, why?

The Dharma has influenced millions of people, people have been imprisoned for spreading the Dharma. Others it has changed their life and none have not heard of the bible. On top of that, there are over a thousands of suttas and each one not neglected from being part of The Dharma.

Buddhist cosmology has many to say about gods and Bodhisattva. A lot of which you can experience their "presence" in temples and like places.

Sacred? Yes

Dependent on physical Dharma? No.

4. My question is why is the physical bible so important?
Many many Buddhist see practice as sacred and suttas secondary to our practice.

I know people who can't live without their physical bible with them. Jesus didn't walk around with the physical torah. It was all oral.

5. If he can practice without the physical jewish scripture, why not Christians?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I like your beginning Bible quote for one single reason. It is uncommonly misused and misapplied in so many cases by both believers and unbelievers.

I am nearly sure that there is going to be disagreement on this issue.

Unless this was interfaith, of course.

 

[savagewind]

Thanks for explaining that.

So what are the problems you have with their interpretation of scripture?

The most important one, in my opinion, is that I believe Revelation 6:2 shows the antichrist, but they call that one "Jesus Christ".