Let’s talk about the Bible

[kjw47]

I never said Dan 12:4 mentioned the keys. I said the book of Daniel holds certain keys to the symbolism that makes up revelation.

Like a horn = a kingdom--Thus one can decipher the 7 headed beast with 10 horns( 10 kingdoms) and the two horned beast=2 kingdoms working together.

Evidence? You prance around a lot, pretending to know what you simply believe. It does little for your credibility.

Reality will prove all credibility.

 

[kjw47]

So where in the book of Daniel does it claim to hold "certain keys to the symbolism that makes up Revelation?"

Or is this something you just decided to make up also?

AFTER you've answered this, I'd also like to get back to the question I've asked you about 5 or 6 times already.

You stated the following:

​

Since Daniel 12:4 specifically tells Daniel to "shut up the words and seal the scroll", can you tell us how when and where your Organization found the scroll, who unsealed it, who translated it, what shut up words they found, what errors they found needed correcting, and where the scroll is now?

Or are you going to take everyone on your merry-go-round and tell us once again there is no scroll, but "kind of like a key", the way you did here?:

​

I will await your reasoned response.

None knew of the correlations( keys) between Daniel-revelation until God revealed those keys through the real teachers who have Jesus. Not even Gods angels knew, but they wanted to-1Peter 1:12)--It kept satan and his angels in spiritual darkness so he couldn't mess it all up into oblivion like he tried through the religion that came out of Rome. The scroll= the book of Daniel--None knew of the correlations with Revelation until these last days. Or possibly a scroll in heaven was unsealed in these last days. Its the only 2 possibilities.

 

[kjw47]

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God's holy spirit opens up the minds of the governing body to know what scriptures mean. Their excuse for mistakes and for the very long time it is taking which is over a hundred years is that God can do it only at the proper time. The "key" is God's proper time. @kjw47 @Oeste

And, there is no scroll. The scroll mentioned in Daniel is the [altered] Bible.

Yes nothing was revealed until the proper time.

 

[metis]

Yes nothing was revealed until the proper time.

So, the people before the "proper time" really weren't important to God?

 

[savagewind]

So, the people before the "proper time" really weren't important to God?

I was thinking the same thing.
It is related to another something that Jehovah's Witnesses believe in.
There are people who are on a spiritual journey. But, Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed their journey for every one of them must know Jehovah together. There are no new ones and wiser ones. They all must be of the same mind and believe the same articles of faith as every other JW. The only ones who they ascribe god'ly wisdom to are the governing body members.

 

[whirlingmerc]

How do you tell honey is good? you put some on your tongue and taste it.... the Bible just tastes good

Psalm 6 a sorrowful psalm

 

[djhwoodwerks]

So, the people before the "proper time" really weren't important to God?

kjw47 believes that God allowed everyone from after the last Apostle until 1914 to live in darkness, not knowing the truth, because God kept the devil and his demons in the dark so all people had to be in the dark too as to not let the devil know the truth. But since God kept them in darkness so the devil wouldn't know the truth, He won't hold it against them.

 

[metis]

kjw47 believes that God allowed everyone from after the last Apostle until 1914 to live in darkness, not knowing the truth, because God kept the devil and his demons in the dark so all people had to be in the dark too as to not let the devil know the truth.

Which of course goes against what Jesus said in regards to guiding his church until the end of time. Not only doesn't it make sense in that regard, it doesn't make sense at all even on the basic logic level. Why would God allow the world to operate in darkness and then many centuries later decide to enlighten people through an organization that cannot trace its roots back to the apostles.

 

[Oeste]

You claim there is no scroll. Then you say the scroll mentioned in Daniel is the bible. If the scroll is the bible and there is no scroll, then there is no bible either.

Very wonderful. Have you got nothing better to do? So far, and I don't care, the words just mean that God's words to Daniel were for later.

We've had Daniel's words and the book of Daniel for over 2500 years now. How can the words be shut and the scroll sealed "for later" if we've had them all this time?

I think that is playing with logic. Maybe, sometime, we can do that together?

Sure! That's what the forum is for.

However I don't think I'm playing with logic so much as utilizing it, and I just don't see much logic in the Watchtower's explanation, though I appreciate anyone's attempt to explain it to me.

Can you, hockeycowboy, Vee, or KJW explain:

Please get me out of their class!

My question is directed to anyone that can understand or explain WT doctrine. Anyone that acts as WT apologist is a member of that "class". They do not need to be WT members.

How did Daniel seal a scroll that did not exist?

He didn't talk about it.

That means he didn’t talk about something that didn’t exist, which brings to question why God would bring up a non-existent scroll in the first place. So now we have God talking about a scroll that doesn’t exist and Daniel sealing this non-existent scroll by refusing to talk about it. It's the very definition of bizarre.

But that’s not the only head turning logical problem. If Daniel sealed the scroll by not talking about it until the last days, the only way for it to be unsealed is to get Daniel to talk about it, and I haven’t seen him making any public appearances lately.

Lastly, since the Governing Board claims to be publishing the contents and explanation (at the proper time, of course) of the unsealed scroll, we can be assured they’ve already talked with Daniel. The question then is whether Daniel appeared invisibly with Jesus in 1914 or if perhaps this was done through the Governing Board’s “channeling” process.

How can Daniel's scroll that is not a scroll be the bible?

Scroll might be a metaphor.

I don’t see how.

It is Daniel that seals the written document until the “end days”. If the scroll is not a written document but a metaphor then Daniel hasn’t sealed a book but he has "sealed a metaphor". I’m not sure how the ancient ones "sealed metaphors” back in the day, especially metaphors that are not written instruments or scrolls.

Lastly, if Daniel is sealing a metaphor instead of a written document, unsealing it does not leave us with revelation in these "end days", it simply leaves us with an unsealed metaphor. We would be no better off in our understanding now then when the metaphor was created.

How could the prophets of old have written anything if the words were shut at the time of Daniel?

They could write, but what they wrote was not easily understood, which is true. Is it not?

I’m afraid it is not.

I see @djhwoodwerks and @metis have already addressed this, but I'll add my two cents in.

If the words the prophets spoke were shut up and sealed until the end days, then no one, including the Pharisees, Jesus or the apostles would have any idea what on earth they were talking about. They could not have spoken with authority nor could anyone recognize them as authoritative if no one understood what they said. There would have been a second “Tower of Babel” from the time of Daniel until the end days.

When John was told “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches” he would have no idea what on earth he was writing, and once received, the seven churches would have no idea what they were reading. There would be no point to the letters because no one, including John, would understand the point he was trying to make. It would be the earliest form of "junk mail".

If the scroll is the bible the words would be shut and the scroll sealed. The historic church would be radically different, based on stories, doctrines and spiritual principles no one could have possibly understood.

In other words, the Jews would have been confounded in their readings of any Latter Prophets after Daniel. As for the New Testament church, "Good news! Good news no one understands!" would have been our motto and rallying cry.

I understand there may be over 8 million people who believe Watchtower teachings, but I can’t help but feel their Kingdom Halls had more than a few stifled laughs and giggles when they roll such “explanations” out.

There is no scriptural justification that the bible is just now being revealed, let alone to a "Governing Board" in Brooklyn. The bible tell us minds were opened to scripture two thousand years ago (Luke 26:45) which precludes it being "shut up" or "sealed" until the "end days."

 

[savagewind]

Right again!

We've had Daniel's words and the book of Daniel for over 2500 years now. How can the words be shut and the scroll sealed "for later" if we've had them all this time?

The meaning was shut up.

However I don't think I'm playing with logic so much as utilizing it, and I just don't see much logic in the Watchtower's explanation, though I appreciate anyone's attempt to explain it to me.

Most of it is nonsence and nonsence can't be explained. IMO.

My question is directed to anyone that can understand or explain WT doctrine. Anyone that acts as WT apologist is a member of that "class". They do not need to be WT members.

Oh God! I am doing something wrong for being viewed as an apologist. It's OK. It puts me out of BOTH classes, which is good.

That means he didn’t talk about something that didn’t exist, which brings to question why God would bring up a non-existent scroll in the first place. So now we have God talking about a scroll that doesn’t exist and Daniel sealing this non-existent scroll by refusing to talk about it. It's the very definition of bizarre.

I think you are right!

But that’s not the only head turning logical problem. If Daniel sealed the scroll by not talking about it until the last days, the only way for it to be unsealed is to get Daniel to talk about it, and I haven’t seen him making any public appearances lately.

My persoanl opinion about Daniel is that he is in Heaven. Hopfully, there is some serious salve up there for them.

Lastly, since the Governing Board claims to be publishing the contents and explanation (at the proper time, of course) of the unsealed scroll, we can be assured they’ve already talked with Daniel. The question then is whether Daniel appeared invisibly with Jesus in 1914 or if perhaps this was done through the Governing Board’s “channeling” process.

They just choose what looks good for their supposed commission.

I don’t see how.

Me either.

It is Daniel that seals the written document until the “end days”. If the scroll is not a written document but a metaphor then Daniel hasn’t sealed a book but he has "sealed a metaphor". I’m not sure how the ancient ones "sealed metaphors” back in the day, especially metaphors that are not written instruments or scrolls.

We do not even know if the whole account is not something that actually happened like it is written.

Lastly, if Daniel is sealing a metaphor instead of a written document, unsealing it does not leave us with revelation in these "end days", it simply leaves us with an unsealed metaphor. We would be no better off in our understanding now then when the metaphor was created.

You are right!

If the words the prophets spoke were shut up and sealed until the end days, then no one, including the Pharisees, Jesus or the apostles would have any idea what on earth they were talking about. They could not have spoken with authority nor could anyone recognize them as authoritative if no one understood what they said. There would have been a second “Tower of Babel” from the time of Daniel until the end days.

I would not include Jesus because he was with the actually writing of Daniel. He knows what it means. Even when it was sealed he knew.

When John was told “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches” he would have no idea what on earth he was writing, and once received, the seven churches would have no idea what they were reading. There would be no point to the letters because no one, including John, would understand the point he was trying to make. It would be the earliest form of "junk mail".

You are right again. What are you trying to understand?

If the scroll is the bible the words would be shut and the scroll sealed. The historic church would be radically different, based on stories, doctrines and spiritual principles no one could have possibly understood.

That is right. I do not know that it was not possible, it is a fact that they don't understand.

In other words, the Jews would have been confounded in their readings of any Latter Prophets after Daniel. As for the New Testament church, "Good news! Good news no one understands!" would have been our motto and rallying cry.

But, the ones who understood are said to be from the beginning [with Jesus]. Do you want the scripture?

I understand there may be over 8 million people who believe Watchtower teachings, but I can’t help but feel their Kingdom Halls had more than a few stifled laughs and giggles when they roll such “explanations” out.

No! That is what is so scary. They eat up that stuff and very seriously so. Nobody would go to the Kingdom Hall for fun. I am sure.

There is no scriptural justification that the bible is just now being revealed, let alone to a "Governing Board" in Brooklyn. The bible tell us minds were opened to scripture two thousand years ago (Luke 26:45) which precludes it being "shut up" or "sealed" until the "end days."

I agree with you. I am NOT a Watchtower apologist. But, it's funny.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I understand there may be over 8 million people who believe Watchtower teachings,

That's what they would like us to believe, but the truth is, they are well under 6 million and shrinking daily! They are selling kingdom halls by the hundreds, getting all that money before Jesus comes back and it isn't worth the paper it's made from!

 

[savagewind]

No, I don't believe that flesh is in Heaven (about the salve).

 

[savagewind]

That's what they would like us to believe, but the truth is, they are well under 6 million and shrinking daily! They are selling kingdom halls by the hundreds, getting all that money before Jesus comes back and it isn't worth the paper it's made from!

A reference?

 

[savagewind]

That's what they would like us to believe, but the truth is, they are well under 6 million and shrinking daily! They are selling kingdom halls by the hundreds, getting all that money before Jesus comes back and it isn't worth the paper it's made from!

The internet says eight million. How do you know eight million is wrong?

 

[savagewind]

I think the Bible might be a puzzle. That it was said "seal up the words" just means to me that
what was written should be puzzling until the end when evidence abounds.
I supposed that It was believed that the information should be put in the form of a most difficult puzzle and only able to be understood while viewing the real evidence and the real evidence would not show until later. Later they call the end. It is still suspect that the "end" is just another puzzle to be considered.
To lean on your own understanding is to be unable to solve the puzzle.

 

[Oeste]

None knew of the correlations( keys) between Daniel-revelation until God revealed those keys through the real teachers who have Jesus. Not even Gods angels knew, but they wanted to-1Peter 1:12)--It kept satan and his angels in spiritual darkness so he couldn't mess it all up into oblivion like he tried through the religion that came out of Rome.

Let's look at 1Peter 1:

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.…

1Peter 1:12 is NOT talking about some "secret bible knowledge" locked away until the Governing Board stumbles upon it in the "last days" KJW. It is talking about our salvation which is clearly and unambiguously stated in verse 10.

Peter wants us to feel amazed and thankful at the greatness of our salvation, which was something even the angels of heaven didn't understand before it happened. When Jesus rose from the grave our salvational picture became a lot clearer. It was fully understood by those who believed THEN, and did not await some "revelation" through the Watchtower two thousand years into the future.

The scroll= the book of Daniel--None knew of the correlations with Revelation until these last days.

No, the scroll couldn’t possibly be the book of Daniel. Let’s use some basic logic here.

Let’s pretend you are living back in the day, writing a particular memorable event onto your scroll when suddenly the voice of God rings from the heavens and says:

“Oh KJW, shut up the words and seal the scroll, even until the time of the end!”

Do you go ahead with that book or scroll deal? Do you tell your friends what’s in the book? Do you parade the book or the words inside? Publish a "sneak peak" at the Library of Alexandria , or make a run your local copyist to get it published???

No!

You immediately stop all writing and shut the book. You get wax, cloth or something else to seal or bind the book. You get agitated if anyone so much as looks at the book. You would probably hide the book in a safe secure place so no one could peek at it until the end of days.

That’s what Daniel was told, and that’s would Daniel would have done. There would be no book of Daniel if the scroll was the book of Daniel. It’s really that simple.

Or possibly a scroll in heaven was unsealed in these last days. Its the only 2 possibilities.

It is Daniel that shuts the words and seals the scroll until the end of days. How on earth did he get the scroll to heaven? Was Daniel in heaven during the writing? Doesn't that contrast with your teaching "flesh and blood" and the Kingdom of Heaven"?

Secondly, how did members of your Governing Board enter heaven to retrieve it? Did they channel the contents or was Daniel with Jesus when he came invisibly in 1914?

 

[Dawnofhope]

“HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS WILL BY NO

MEANS PASS AWAY.” Matthew 24:35 NKJV ​

Independently of people’s individual beliefs, it is undeniable that the Bible has an incredible story.

It was written over a period of at least 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony.

But the most amazing fact about the bible is the way it survived. Most of our ancient literature has been lost due to the corrosion or destruction of the materials on which they were preserved. The Bible however, exists not only in its entirety, but in a well-preserved form, despite many efforts to destroy it.


- About 600 B.C. Jehoiakim, attempted to destroy the Word of God, but miserably failed. (Jeremiah. 36:21-32).

- In 175 BC the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes, ordered the Jews, on pain of death, to destroy their Scriptures and worship the Greek gods. But Judas Maccabaeus saved the books and led a revolt that won independence for the Jewish nation. (Today, Jews celebrate this event at Hanukkah.)

- In 64 A.D. Emperor Nero not only tried to wipe out the Bible, but anyone who professed Christ. He blamed them for the burning of Rome (which, he did himself) and ordered their mass execution.

- In 303 A.D. the Roman Emperor, Diocletian waged a horrible onslaught against the Bible. Every manuscript that could be found was destroyed. Thousands, including entire families who owned any of these were martyred.

- Jerome, in 405 A.D. completed a Latin translation of the Bible. In spite of being persecuted, Jerome’s translation lived through the Dark Ages. Anglo-Saxon translations of parts of Scripture, particularly the Gospel accounts appeared in England in the 7th & 8th centuries. In 1379 John Wycliffe along with chosen scholars translated the Latin Bible into English. By 1383, thousands of copies of the Wycliffe Bible were in the hands of the English. People who owned these Bibles were hunted down and killed.

- In 1524 William Tyndale resolved to put the Bible into the English of his time and distribute it throughout the nation. But, this being contrary to English law, Tyndale had to leave England for Europe. Printing began in Cologne. Tyndale was apprehended and imprisoned. In 1536 he was strangled and burned at the stake.

- In 1546 the Roman Catholic Council of Trent placed any printing of religious literature, including translations of the Bible, under the control of the church. Any who wanted to read the Bible were told to obtain written permission from bishops or inquisitors—not an appealing prospect for those who wanted to remain above suspicion of heresy. People who dared to possess or distribute Bibles in the common languages of their region had to contend with the ire of the Catholic Church. Many were arrested, burned at the stake, roasted on spits, sentenced to life in prison, or sent to the galleys. Confiscated Bibles were burned

- French humanist, Voltaire, (1700) boastfully proclaimed, "one hundred years from now the world will hear no more of the Bible." Yet, in the year of his boast, the British museum purchased a manuscript of the Greek New Testament for $500,000 while the first edition of Voltaire's new book sold for eight cents a copy! Furthermore, fifty years after the death of Voltaire, Bibles were being printed by the Geneva Bible Society in the very house where Voltaire lived and on his own printing press!

- Even after the Reformation commenced and Bible societies were formed the Catholic Church classified them with Socialism and Communism. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius IX made this amazing statement: "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies....pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."

Despite so much opposition, the Bible not only survived, it thrived.

The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages. No other book even comes close.

With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time. It sells approximately 100 million copies annually, and has been a major influence on literature and history.


Some references:
25 Fascinating Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls @ Century One Bookstore
The Write Journey: How Has the Bible Survived?
The Evidence Bible
The Preservation of the Bible
Miracle Of Survival Of The Bible
Manuscripts of the Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Bible - Wikipedia

Thanks for a well thought out OP.

The Bible is certainly one of the most outstanding works of literature perhaps the most influential book throughout recent history.

One problem is that it has been so widely misunderstood and increasingly difficult to accept literally in a modern setting.

Add to that man made doctrines such as the trinity, where Christians appear to have misunderstood their own sacred texts.

An update is long overdue.

 

[Vee]

Thanks for a well thought out OP.

The Bible is certainly one of the most outstanding works of literature perhaps the most influential book throughout recent history.

One problem is that it has been so widely misunderstood and increasingly difficult to accept literally in a modern setting.

Add to that man made doctrines such as the trinity, where Christians appear to have misunderstood their own sacred texts.

An update is long overdue.

You make some very good points. Unfortunately many so called Christians have done more evil than good, dragging down the image of the Bible and God.
The Bible is not easy to understand. It requires deep study. But today there is a lot of information available and many study tools that can help us understand better what those sometimes really weird bible texts mean.

 

[kjw47]

So, the people before the "proper time" really weren't important to God?

They could do their best with the knowledge they had, and all of them died and paid in full the wages of sin. So when resurrected to the earth in Gods kingdom, will have an opportunity then for 1000 years, to learn and apply Gods will, with no satan influences,Then satan will be loosed for a little while and some follow him to the lake of fire.

 

[kjw47]

Let's look at 1Peter 1:

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.…

1Peter 1:12 is NOT talking about some "secret bible knowledge" locked away until the Governing Board stumbles upon it in the "last days" KJW. It is talking about our salvation which is clearly and unambiguously stated in verse 10.

Peter wants us to feel amazed and thankful at the greatness of our salvation, which was something even the angels of heaven didn't understand before it happened. When Jesus rose from the grave our salvational picture became a lot clearer. It was fully understood by those who believed THEN, and did not await some "revelation" through the Watchtower two thousand years into the future.



No, the scroll couldn’t possibly be the book of Daniel. Let’s use some basic logic here.

Let’s pretend you are living back in the day, writing a particular memorable event onto your scroll when suddenly the voice of God rings from the heavens and says:

“Oh KJW, shut up the words and seal the scroll, even until the time of the end!”

Do you go ahead with that book or scroll deal? Do you tell your friends what’s in the book? Do you parade the book or the words inside? Publish a "sneak peak" at the Library of Alexandria , or make a run your local copyist to get it published???

No!

You immediately stop all writing and shut the book. You get wax, cloth or something else to seal or bind the book. You get agitated if anyone so much as looks at the book. You would probably hide the book in a safe secure place so no one could peek at it until the end of days.

That’s what Daniel was told, and that’s would Daniel would have done. There would be no book of Daniel if the scroll was the book of Daniel. It’s really that simple.



It is Daniel that shuts the words and seals the scroll until the end of days. How on earth did he get the scroll to heaven? Was Daniel in heaven during the writing? Doesn't that contrast with your teaching "flesh and blood" and the Kingdom of Heaven"?

Secondly, how did members of your Governing Board enter heaven to retrieve it? Did they channel the contents or was Daniel with Jesus when he came invisibly in 1914?

Then how do you explain out of say 33,000 religions claiming to be Christian--ALL explained Rev--yet only one is correct--WHY? Only the one that came back here in these last days--the rest are in darkness.