Let God be true, and every man a liar.

[Christian Pilgrim]

Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge." - Rom 3:4

Is the Holy Bible true? Would anyone like to discuss the central message and themes found in the Holy Bible, and how it applies to you personally? I would like to respond with a Christian worldview defined within the Scriptures. Let’s compare and contrast it with other worldviews. Assistance from other Christians with a Biblical worldview is much appreciated. This is also a chance for those who are not Christians to test their personal beliefs against biblical revelation. But please try to share with gentleness and respect. Let's restrain from personal comments too. I didn't write the Bible, but I just believe it. I think we are in a generation of much Biblical ignorance, which extends to our churches. Too many Christians have a secular worldview as compared to getting their beliefs from the Holy Bible. It is quite evident with some Christians on this Forum site that their views do not come from Scripture, but is driven from the spirituality of our day.

 

[Riverwolf]

First of all, is the Holy Bible holy at all?

I understand to some people, it is very much Holy. That's okay.

To me, it is yet another collection of ancient stories and philosophies. I just call it the "Bible"; I see no reason to add the word "Holy" to it.

Now, I disagree with many of the philosophies that the Bible has presented, primarily from Paul's letters. I don't mind if I am damned for all time for thinking that.

However, Jesus himself provided the central message of the Bible: Love God with all your heart and love your enemy as you would your neighbor.

Basically, Love.

Such is the central message of pretty much all the major religions, and most of the minor ones as well, including my own.

I don't have time to go into too much detail right now, but I'll be back! :evilgrin:

 

[sojourner]

It occurs to me that if we place the Bible on too high a pedestal, not only will it block our view of God from down here, but it will be impossible for us to read and understand.

 

[ChristineES]

It occurs to me that if we place the Bible on too high a pedestal, not only will it block our view of God from down here, but it will be impossible for us to read and understand.

That is true. We are supposed to worship God, not the Bible. If one is following the teachings of the Bible, then one must study it. But we must do so with prayer and spirit- which is from God.

 

[Heneni]

Im not entirely sure what you want to discuss CP, can you break it down a bit? Or give an example.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

That is true. We are supposed to worship God, not the Bible. If one is following the teachings of the Bible, then one must study it. But we must do so with prayer and spirit- which is from God.

How are we to worship God in Spirit and in Truth apart from His written revelation? The Scripture reveals to us about how God is like, and what He requires of us. If we do not rely on God the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Scriptures, then we worship a god just like everyone else on RF. Of course I say this with conviction, but respect for those who differ from my worldview.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Im not entirely sure what you want to discuss CP, can you break it down a bit? Or give an example.

Anything that you want to dear sister. Please continue without me because I have to leave this site for awhile.

 

[Karl R]

Let God be true, and every man a liar.
I didn't write the Bible, but I just believe it.
It is quite evident with some Christians on this Forum site that their views do not come from Scripture, but is driven from the spirituality of our day.

Let's assume that your initial assertion (in blue) is correct. God is true, humans are liars (or biased, or ignorant, or fools, or in some other way wrong).

When god spoke his word, he spoke the truth. The person who heard it and wrote it down may be a liar. Heck, they may not have heard god at all, but may have claimed to hear god in order to make themselves seem more important, or promote their own political agenda. Even if they weren't liars, the words they wrote on the page (and even their thoughts) were certainly slanted by their own cultural bias.

The people who translated the bible from the original Aramaic and Greek into Latin also had cultural bias. They may also have lied or been mistaken in their translations. The same is true for those who translated the bible from Latin into English. And when you or I read the bible, we also have our own cultural bias.

So when you say that you believe the bible, you ignore all the people who have had the opportunity to put their own spin (or even outright lies) into the book.

Would anyone like to discuss the central message and themes found in the Holy Bible, and how it applies to you personally?

Jesus himself provided the central message of the Bible: Love God with all your heart and love your enemy as you would your neighbor.

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of the Torah. All else is commentary."
- Rabbi Hillel, approximately 100 BCE

As Riverwolf suggested, we can take the great commandment "Love god with all your heart, mind, soul and strength," and the second greatest commandment "Love others as you love yourself," as the central message of the bible (or god's truth, if you prefer) ... and we can treat the rest as commentary.

Even the great commandment, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is just commentary on "love others."

If I read a section of the bible that conflicts with the central (true) message of the bible, I have to consider that part of the bible may be a lie, or biased by an author/translator, or a mistake, or simply something that I misunderstand.

Anyone who loves others is following the central message of the bible, even if they're not a christian.

Anyone who takes an exerpt from the bible, then takes a literal translation of those verses, then uses that literal translation to further their own personal/social/political/religious agenda, even though it violates the central message of the scripture ... that person is basing their belief on the spirituality of the day (fundamentalism), not the truth.

 

[Heneni]

Anything that you want to dear sister. Please continue without me because I have to leave this site for awhile.

Im sorry to hear that. I was rather hoping we could have some interesting discussions. But i'll be patient and wait for your return. Wont be the same without you. Hurry on back ok?

Heneni

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Let's assume that your initial assertion (in blue) is correct. God is true, humans are liars (or biased, or ignorant, or fools, or in some other way wrong).

When god spoke his word, he spoke the truth. The person who heard it and wrote it down may be a liar. Heck, they may not have heard god at all, but may have claimed to hear god in order to make themselves seem more important, or promote their own political agenda. Even if they weren't liars, the words they wrote on the page (and even their thoughts) were certainly slanted by their own cultural bias.

The people who translated the bible from the original Aramaic and Greek into Latin also had cultural bias. They may also have lied or been mistaken in their translations. The same is true for those who translated the bible from Latin into English. And when you or I read the bible, we also have our own cultural bias.

So when you say that you believe the bible, you ignore all the people who have had the opportunity to put their own spin (or even outright lies) into the book.



"That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of the Torah. All else is commentary."
- Rabbi Hillel, approximately 100 BCE

As Riverwolf suggested, we can take the great commandment "Love god with all your heart, mind, soul and strength," and the second greatest commandment "Love others as you love yourself," as the central message of the bible (or god's truth, if you prefer) ... and we can treat the rest as commentary.

Even the great commandment, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," is just commentary on "love others."

If I read a section of the bible that conflicts with the central (true) message of the bible, I have to consider that part of the bible may be a lie, or biased by an author/translator, or a mistake, or simply something that I misunderstand.

Anyone who loves others is following the central message of the bible, even if they're not a christian.

Anyone who takes an exerpt from the bible, then takes a literal translation of those verses, then uses that literal translation to further their own personal/social/political/religious agenda, even though it violates the central message of the scripture ... that person is basing their belief on the spirituality of the day (fundamentalism), not the truth.

To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul strenght, and mind is really a summary of the first 4 commandments in the 10 commandments. To love your neighbor as yourself is a summary of the last six commandments. Of course, this is what is commanded by God for all His creatures. The law is good!

 

[sojourner]

How are we to worship God in Spirit and in Truth apart from His written revelation? The Scripture reveals to us about how God is like, and what He requires of us. If we do not rely on God the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Scriptures, then we worship a god just like everyone else on RF. Of course I say this with conviction, but respect for those who differ from my worldview.

I don't know. How do you suppose the ancients did that, when there was no written word?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Im sorry to hear that. I was rather hoping we could have some interesting discussions. But i'll be patient and wait for your return. Wont be the same without you. Hurry on back ok?

Heneni

I did not mean to imply that I had to leave due to RF staff. They have been so kind and hospitable to me. I am really thankful to the RF staff for giving me liberty to post as I have. I haven't even got a warning for preaching…LOL. When I meant that I had to leave, it was time for lunch and that I need to get some work completed today. It is also my son’s birthday, so I better stay away from RF for the rest of the day. I’m on Pacific Standard Time so it’s only 1:22 PM. I have read some of your postings and I feel very comfortable what you personally write and post. Therefore, maybe you can answer those who have sincere questions in my place?

 

[Azakel]

First of all, is the Holy Bible holy at all?

Can an object that is easily destroyed be the elements be holy? ^_^

 

[Azakel]

How are we to worship God in Spirit and in Truth apart from His written revelation? The Scripture reveals to us about how God is like, and what He requires of us. If we do not rely on God the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Scriptures, then we worship a god just like everyone else on RF. Of course I say this with conviction, but respect for those who differ from my worldview.

So you limit your god to what a man made book say is true about him? Then maybe your god isn't as Omni-Everything as he seems then.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I don't know. How do you suppose the ancients did that, when there was no written word?

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. - Hebrews

What is written and recorded is what happened. It is a historical account. Do I believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob existed? Do I believe Joseph and Moses existed? Do I believe the prophets in the Bible existed. Do I believe that God gave Moses the tables with the 10 commandments and the Israelites made a golden calf? Sure!

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. - Rom 15:4

 

[*Paul*]

Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge." - Rom 3:4

Is the Holy Bible true?

Yes

Would anyone like to discuss the central message and themes found in the Holy Bible, and how it applies to you personally?

Mans rebellion, God's love, I think how it applies to me as a rebel is obvious.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Yes[/font][/color]

Mans rebellion, God's love, I think how it applies to me as a rebel is obvious.

Okay, since *Paul* is here... both the Apostle Paul and *Paul* speaks for me in my absence.

 

[Wandered Off]

I, too, will be happy to speak for you in your absence!

Your prophet, WO

 

[sojourner]

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. - Hebrews

What is written and recorded is what happened. It is a historical account. Do I believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob existed? Do I believe Joseph and Moses existed? Do I believe the prophets in the Bible existed. Do I believe that God gave Moses the tables with the 10 commandments and the Israelites made a golden calf? Sure!

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. - Rom 15:4

What about before the prophets? What about after the prophets, but before the Bible was written down? What about the early Church who didn't have access to the then-new NT writings?

If you really believe what you wrote in the blue type, I can't make you believe any differently. But you're bound to be disappointed sooner or later.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

I, too, will be happy to speak for you in your absence!

Your prophet, WO

Absolutely… I mean absolutely not...