Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Can you please provide the quote from the Quo-ran which states that this was only for the time of Noah and the Israelites?
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Let there be no compulsion in religion
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Can you please provide the quote from the Quo-ran which states that this was only for the time of Noah and the Israelites?
Show me a verse that suggests Muhammad's Words are applicable to time over 1,400 years after these words were spoken.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
So you are saying that everything he said should be ignored, then?
No. What I'm saying is when we analyse a verse from scripture we need to consider its context within history, scripture and comparative religion. Osama bin Laden was a hateful man who used verses from the Quran to justify his perverse agenda. We could use exactly the same verses in a similar manner to criticise Muhammad for not providing laws suited to our modern era.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
you might want to move this to the general debate section
everyone and his nonbelieving counterpoint is posting
Everyone is free to contribute providing views expressed are courteous and moderate.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Obviously apostasy laws are not based on the Quran. In fact, they are against the Quran.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
A problem here is that even thought the text states "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error", it then explicitly states that "the truth" is belief in Allah, and seems to equate nonbelief with "evil." In one fell swoop it opens up the discussion about non-compulsory religious belief and then makes a statement that ATTEMPTS TO COMPEL THE READER.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
well....not having a religion
and believing in God
I'm like out on a limb
and because my perspective is a bit.....out there
I tend to rub people …..almost raw
I for one believe God and heaven don't give damn about religion
and calling the Name of a Prophet might actually be a bit risque
picture this....yes you can
you die....you stand from your carcass
the Angelic appear to see what stood from the dust
they ask ...What do you believe?
and you name a Prophet
but what if Muhammed got it wrong?
and his followers waving swords......got it wrong?
someone posted an execution of a woman
some guy in a white gown cut her head off
I sincerely hope the poor woman found spiritual assistance from the angelic
as for the idiot with the sword...….
It will be done unto him
as he did unto others
(btw....I often post discussion about swords)
(wanna play?)
Shad
Veteran Member
I agree with people that have pointed out mental manipulation and group think by enforcing conformity, social stability and favoritism of one religion over another.
If Muhammad believed in this I am not sure. I would need to do some research. At the very least after his death there was the Ridda Wars which are considered wars against apostasy at an inter-tribal level. After Muhammad's death a number of members of his confederation didn't acknowledge the next Caliphs as legitimate or that allegiance was to Muhammad only. This led to conflict. I remember reading about an Umayyad (maybe later) advocate during it's Spain era arguing forced conformity would result in true belief of later generations. The logic being it was a cultural and social conformity not a religious one. Perceptions and appearances could cause one to study Islam becoming true believers. The targets for the deception were of little concern.
I don't know why you say that.
If that is so obvious, how do you explain the existence of so many Muslim countries with definite apostasy laws? What makes their existence so much less obviously opposed to the Qur'an to whole countries?
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia
There is certainly a strong trend among Muslims of hoping or expecting that Islaam will be convincing in and of itself once it is learned of.
The Qur'an supports that hope, when it establishes in no uncertain terms that lack of awareness of Islaam is one reason not to punish "kuffar". But it provides precious little, arguably nothing whatsoever, to establish how to treat people who just won't be Muslims.
That is noteworthy, given the legalist tendencies of the Qur'an and the huge extent to which talks about how to treat other people and specifically non-Muslims. It even has the habit of categorizing people according to the degree of adherence to Abrahamic beliefs and to the Qur'an, down to the civic rights and taxation duties.
There are those who claim that "apostasy" is not specifically denoted as worth of physical punishment by the Qur'an, but plenty disagree, as evidenced by the existence of such punishment in many real Muslim communities. But even leaving that aside, there is no ambiguity whatsoever in the Quranic verses in stating that "leaving Faith" is not just wrong but very much worth of some form of punishment.
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia
As one would expect, those verses (as the Qur'an as whole, really) don't really attempt to acknowledge any nuance between losing faith in Allah, in the Qur'an, in the status of Muhammad as a Prophet, in Religion as a whole, in Islaam or even in the value of morality itself.
The Qur'an is simply not interested in such fine points; the message is clear and decisive that any good person ought to accept Islaam once given a fair opportunity of learning of it, and is definitely misguided if he or she decides not to.
It is anyone's guess how the average Muslim reconciles that attitude with the first half of Surah 2:256, and how that feat was historically accomplished through time and various cultures. But from the available evidence, it is only fair to say that "not very well" is a good descriptor.
One would certainly be hard-pressed to find a clear, elaborate piece on what that supposed absence of compulsion in religion means for Islaam. We are apparently to learn of the verse and be satisfied, just like that, and focus our attention on the hope and expectation that non-Muslims will freely adopt Islaam at every turn, simply because they are given the means to.
firedragon
Veteran Member
They are not less obviously opposed to the Quran. They are obviously opposed to the Quran.
I don't think so. And to the best of my knowledge, neither do the people nor the government of, say, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Hello Adrian.
It is estimated that around 18% of the world’s 1.8 billion Muslims live in countries that permit the killing of apostates. I have no idea what percentage of this minority are eager to abandon Islam; and would rush to do so, were it not for fear of reprisal. But let’s be clear: If only one disaffected Muslim – just the one – is killed for leaving the Faith, then that is one too many.
The answer to your question is ‘No’.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says: ‘As for those who believe, then reject the faith, then believe again, then reject the faith again and become increasingly defiant, Allāh will not forgive them, nor will He guide them on any path. (Prophet), tell such hypocrites that a grievous punishment awaits them.’ (Al-Nisa: 137-138).
If death is the ordained punishment for apostasy, then why do these verses not say so? Indeed, they are made a nonsense by the notion that anyone who rejects the faith must be killed; for how can a dead person accept what he once rejected; reject it again; and grow in defiance?!!
Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it authorise an earthly punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reserves for Himself the right to judge such behaviour; and to do so on the Day of Judgement.
Some would have us believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) required the death sentence for apostasy. In order to buttress their claim these folk refer to a number of aḥādīth; the best known is this:
‘Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”’ (Sahih Al-Bukhari).
I opine that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said no such thing; and that this ḥādīth – and others like it – was fabricated to support corrupt rulers and governments; and is now being employed for that very purpose.
Here are my reasons:
The Qur’an was revealed over twenty-three years. At no time was the Prophet given permission to judge, or to execute, apostates. On the contrary, the Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that his role was to convey the message – to preach and teach the Faith, as expressed in the Qur’an – and nothing more. He was NOT to impose it by force:
‘Allāh bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise. True Religion, in Allāh’s eyes, is islam (devotion to Him alone). Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge - if anyone denies Allāh’s revelations, Allāh is swift to take account- if they argue with you (Prophet), say: “I have devoted myself to Allāh alone and so have my followers.”
‘Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one: “Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, YOUR ONLY DUTY IS TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE. Allāh is aware of His servants.’ (Al-‘Imran: 18-20; my emphasis).
And again: ‘Obey Allāh, obey the Messenger, and always be on your guard: if you pay no heed, bear in mind that the SOLE DUTY of Our Messenger is to DELIVER THE MESSAGE clearly.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 92; my emphasis).
And again: ‘(Prophet), follow what has been revealed to you of your Lord’s Scripture: there is no changing His words, nor can you find any refuge except with Him. Content yourself with those who pray to their Lord morning and evening, seeking His approval, and do not let your eyes turn away from them out of desire for the attractions of this worldly life: do not yield to those whose hearts We have made heedless of Our Qur’an, those who follow their own low desires, those whose ways are unbridled. Say: “Now the truth has come from your Lord”: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so.’ (Al-Kahf: 29).
The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was given no authority to enforce belief; no authority to kill a person simply for changing his religion. Given the restrictions placed upon him by his Lord, it is unthinkable that he would assume authority for himself – that he would usurp the Exalted’s role as sole judge in this matter. This is why I discount all aḥādīth that suggest the contrary (and by the way, I am not a Qur’anist!). My argument is supported by the fact that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not order the death of a single person for apostasy alone.
As you know, the Qur’an stresses freedom of conscience as one of Islam’s fundamental tenets:
‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing. Allāh is the ally of those who believe: He brings them out of the depths of darkness and into the light.’ (Al-Baqara: 256-257).
Muhammad Abdel Haleem writes: ‘This verse begins with the phrase lā ikrāha fī’l-dīn (there is no compulsion in religion). It is introduced by ‘lā’, the particle of absolute negation in Arabic, which negates absolutely the notion of compulsion in religion. Religion in the Qur’an is based on choice, and true choice is based on knowledge and making matters clear for people to choose. The rest of the ‘there is no compulsion in religion’ verse gives reasons justifying and explaining this.’ (‘Exploring the Qur'an: Context and Impact’).
Apostasy laws are enforced for political rather than religious reasons. Autocratic religious states (and organisations) have always used the threat of punishment as a means of control. When the Church was a power to be reckoned with – when it controlled every aspect of a believer’s life – it did not hesitate to punish apostasy (and heresy) with death.
Only when the Church lost its secular powers were people free to think, and to do, as they pleased.
All Muslims consider the Qur’an to be the very the word of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). This is why it is considered to be the primary and supreme source of jurisprudence in Islam. The Sunnah (the practice of Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes next. Both leave no doubt that apostasy – of itself – is not punishable by death. The only justification for punishing an apostate is when that person goes on to commit a criminal offence – such as murder; theft; treason or some form of war crime.
Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).
Puritans claim that this verse has been abrogated by the following:
‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).
The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’ (cf. Al-‘Imran: 18-20; above).
Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.
Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to Allāh, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’
It amuses me to see Islamophobes and Muslim extremists at odds with the Qur’an on the matter of apostasy. In order to portray their own perverted theological, or political, viewpoint both go to great lengths to misrepresent its clear verses. Both regurgitate the same fallacious arguments, and offer them as ‘authentic’ Islam.
Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:
‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).
Apostasy laws have been borrowed from older scriptures. They have no basis in the Qur’an or Sunnah. This is why clerics who espouse such extremist beliefs show continued reluctance to debate Muslim scholars and intellectuals on this issue.
Have a great day!
Hi @adrian009 sorry if you explained this elsewhere but, can you please explain to me the connection between the Bahai faith and Islam? Are you considered a Muslim? if you dont mind, can you please explain why or why not? Thank you
firedragon
Veteran Member
When someone does against a Quranic teaching, its contradictory to the Quran.
Fair enough. But it is still remarkable that what the Qur'an says can be so obvious for some and obvious in an entirely incompatible way for others.
firedragon
Veteran Member
They have neglected the Quran
Hi @Earthtank
Perhaps the easiest way to understand the Baha’i Faith is to consider the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus, a Jew brought a Revelation from God although founded on Judaism was represented an independent religion. In a similar manner Bahá’u’lláh, born a Muslim brought a New Revelation from God that is the founded on Islam yet independent of it. In that sense the Baha’i Faith like Christianity is not merely a sect of the religion from which it emerged but an independent religion. Baha’is view Muhammad as a Messenger of Allah and the Holy Quran as being the authenticated repository of the Word of God. This view presents a challenge for many Muslims who believe Muhammad to be the final Prophet of all time.
The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community
Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia