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Let's Debate Inequality

an anarchist

Your local loco.
In principle, you are correct. But then again: Is manipulating the market only a bad thing when done in a very large scale?
The free market idea relies on individualism.

In a free market society, there would be no mass or calculated redistribution of wealth. Each individual would be responsible for their portion of wealth. Each individual has subjective values and will know how best to spend their own wealth to meet their own needs.

The economy and market would (hypothetically/supposedly) spontaneously ebb and flow with the ever fluctuating nature of supply and demand. Each individual is manipulating the market to best serve their own needs.

I am advocating for the polar opposite of what you are advocating. Have each individual responsible for redistributing their own wealth.

Now I’m sure you are thinking of saying that companies would accumulate wealth and use it for their own selfish needs. We can explore that, but I do ask you apply the same scrutiny to government.

On that note, is there an ideal government from history that you can point to? Or perhaps a contemporary national economy that you think showcases the principles you are advocating for?
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Because it doesn't make sense to have a debate with a psycopath
Labeling someone as such I believe is inappropriate.

I can speak from personal experience that I used to view statists in a similar light. I have learned to stop. To view the opposition as naive is the worst you should allow yourself to think.

People disagree. People have different perspectives. It doesn’t make them a “psychopath”.

I suggest rethinking this.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Just because you (or I) don't value it doesn't mean it has no value. My point is; the ability to create wealth is not limited to what is here on Earth.

If I can convince you it is valuable enough to spend money on it, that is when the wealth is created.
There are two construction workers, both have acquired a nice patch of land. One of them has built a few houses on the land, but not yet sold any of them. The other has done nothing. Do they have the same amount of wealth?
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Incorrect. Knowing whether a country is capitalist is insufficient to determine if most of it's population is (very) poor. On the other hand, knowing it used to be a colonizer is sufficient to determine that.
You’re not paying attention. Those countries that embrace capitalism got people out of poverty more so than those countries that reject it.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Incorrect. Knowing whether a country is capitalist is insufficient to determine if most of it's population is (very) poor. On the other hand, knowing it used to be a colonizer is sufficient to determine that.
You’re not paying attention. Those countries that embrace capitalism got people out of poverty more so than those countries that reject it.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Fantastic! Thanks for providing this.

Strictly speaking, your argument as stated is valid but unfortunately not sound & the reason it's unsound is because premise 4 can be false; its consequent does not necessarily follow from its antecedent. It is possible for the government to have access to the resources/money of rich people, yet not distribute these resources/money to the poorest.

I'm going to disregard this nuisance of a technicality, though, because with your original claim, as stated (Crime, corruption, poverty, abject hunger, lack of shelter and access to basic necessities can all be reduced by taxing the rich and distributing money, goods and services to the poorest.), it does seem like it can be the conclusion to a sound argument & I think this can be achieved by making some tweaks to your premises - in fact, I think there's only one that's necessary - revise consequent for premise 4 to "the government can distribute these resources/money to the poorest." I believe this would now be consistent with your original claim resulting in your argument being sound.

As a side note: based on this tweak, your argument is sound independent of the 1st 2 premises; I'm just going to move on for now, but we can revisit these 2 premises and how they need to be incorporated into an argument if necessary.


Yes, I do believe this is a pretty good description - I'll go with it unless some unnoticed detail reveals some sort of discrepancy; I think you get the idea of my position or what I'm getting at.


I agree that there may be several ways to address this, including educating voters, and I have quite a few:


One thing that voters ought to familiarize themselves with and understand about the economy is the Laffer Curve. This basically points out that there's an optimal tax rate for maximizing revenue; for example, a tax rate of 10% could bring in $1 trillion dollars in tax revenue, a tax rate of 50% could bring in $3 trillion in revenue, but a tax rate of 90% is going to bring in less than $3 trillion; it'll probably be the same as or close to the revenue brought in by a 10% tax rate (maybe a little more, maybe a little less). If enough voters were aware of this, then they might realize that the tax rate might as well be 10% rather than 90%, or 25% rather than 75%, etc.

Last I checked, there's a consensus among economists about the general shape of the curve, but not with where this optimal tax rate is. The free market economists more or less contend that this rate is somewhere below 50%, and socialist economists more ore less contend that this rate is somewhere above 50%. From the perspective of the top US marginal tax rate (~37%) and an analysis based on an engineering perspective (i.e. ~35%: The Crier Curve), they seem to be in agreement with the position of free market economists, and I think it's interesting that these values happen to be very close to each other. The discrepancy can probably be explained by the fact that the blog article doesn't assume tax brackets, meaning that without tax brackets & having the same revenue results, the US tax rate would probably be ~35%.


A tax rate, even without tax brackets, as opposed to a fixed tax fee is one thing that's already being done to tax more from the rich. With a tax based on rate, someone only making $25k/yr is only paying, say - $2.5k in taxes at a 10% rate, and someone making $25 million/yr is paying, say - $2.5 million in taxes; they're paying way more in taxes than what someone makes in a year at a rate of $25k/yr (that's a factor of 100 between richer person tax bill and poorer person total pay!).

Tax brackets is something else that's being done to tax even more from the rich; now that person making 25k/yr is only paying, say - $1.25k in taxes at a 5% tax rate, and that person making $25 million/yr, at a tax rate of, say - 20%, is paying somewhere in or near the vicinity of $4.5 million or more, but below $5 million (taking into account the lower marginal rates for the lower bracketed rate amounts) in taxes, depending on where those brackets are and their rates. Now you've gone from the poor tax payer paying $2.5k to only paying $1.25k, and the rich tax payer going from paying $2.5 million to paying around $4.5 million or a "little more" (meaning something like an additional $100k).


If it's your contention that the rich have the luxury of deductions and tax loopholes to avoid having to pay taxes, then the solution to this is to have a flat tax rate. In reality, it basically doesn't make a difference, because taxes are actually money being removed from between the trading parties; what I mean is this - let's suppose person A negotiates a trade with person B; person A sells a widget to person B for $100. One scenario is that there's a sales tax of 10%, meaning that person B actually has to spend $110 to purchase the widget, and tax revenue is $10. In another scenario there's an income tax of 10%, meaning that the person A has to pay 10%, which is also $10 in revenue, and made a net gain of $90; however, with the law of supply and demand, this basically means that each party is pays will vary.

Let's suppose person A wants to have a net gain of $100 for the widget; for a 10% income tax rate, then they're going to demand $111.12 from person B for the widget. Let's now suppose person B has a budget of $100 for the widget; if they have to pay a sales tax of 10%, they're going to offer person A $90.90 for the widget. In both cases, the tax revenue is slightly different, but essentially the same amount (~$10). There are several points being illustrated by this: one is that the government is receiving practically the same amount either way; another is that one or the other party has to foot the bill; the buyer is going to lower their offer if they have to foot the tax bill, and the seller is going to raise their price if they have to foot the tax bill.


This means that the only real difference between a sales tax and an income tax is who's responsible for that cutting a check for paying that ~$10 in taxes and sending it to the government. Retail businesses already have the responsibility of cutting that check for the sales tax revenue they have to collect from customers, and retail customers don't have to concern themselves with cutting a check to pay the sales tax, since they've already paid it when the retailer collected it from them, unless they want to deduct it as a business or medical expense, etc. The same isn't true for employees when it comes to paying income tax; employee income taxes are already being deducted by an employer's payroll department, but employees have to go fill out and file income tax returns and pay up to the IRS and state tax departments if they owe money.

As businesses, retailers have the infrastructure to collect sales taxes, and employers have the infrastructure to withhold taxes; employers and retailers are essentially or usually one in the same thing, meaning that it's one in the same entity that's both collecting sales taxes and withholding employee taxes, with some exceptions (e.g. wholesale distributors).

(to be continued)
In a different context, what I am proposing is a something like a "wealth concentration tax". That is create statistical distribution based on income and have an extra taxation imposed when a person is 5 or 8 sigma away from the mean wealth value. This is because highly unequal distribution of wealth is a socio-economic and political problem in its own right. We want many affluent people and not a few hyper-affluent people and many poor people. In a sense it is similar to anti-monopoly laws.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Though it may have drastically slowed down, I can assure you it didn't come to a complete stop
For the mass unemployed, it effectively did. People lost their homes and their livings.
For the wealthy and more affluent areas, who cares? They lost nothing.

..so we saw mass rioting, and a new role for the police. They were then equipped with shields,
tear gas, water cannon.
Her govt. further divided the nation with populist selling off of shares of public utilities.
Naturally, those mass unemployed and most of their offspring could not participate. :neutral:

It blighted many people's lives permanently due to persistent unemployment and poor health.

Reminder: We are debating INEQUALITY !
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The free market idea relies on individualism.

In a free market society, there would be no mass or calculated redistribution of wealth. Each individual would be responsible for their portion of wealth. Each individual has subjective values and will know how best to spend their own wealth to meet their own needs.

The economy and market would (hypothetically/supposedly) spontaneously ebb and flow with the ever fluctuating nature of supply and demand. Each individual is manipulating the market to best serve their own needs.

I am advocating for the polar opposite of what you are advocating. Have each individual responsible for redistributing their own wealth.

Ok, but I don't think individuals, in general, would be any better off in a society you are suggesting. Even with a government that redistributes wealth, we fail to grant a decent life to everyone. Why would the capital naturally flow in a way where the vast majority of people would benefit from it?

Now I’m sure you are thinking of saying that companies would accumulate wealth and use it for their own selfish needs.

That's exactly what they already do.

We can explore that, but I do ask you apply the same scrutiny to government.

I agree with applying the same scrutiny to the government.

On that note, is there an ideal government from history that you can point to? Or perhaps a contemporary national economy that you think showcases the principles you are advocating for?

I wish I had enough knowledge to properly answer this, but I don't. If you ask me about specific policies, I can make do, but a country's economy as a whole? I definitely don't have this kind of knowledge.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It would be a mistake to assume the problems you guys see in San Francisco are typical of problems everywhere in the USA; Your city has a unique set of problems compared to other places. But I also recognize there are good and bad people everywhere, so of course there are gonna be bad capitalists. There are also bad poor people, black people white people, cops, doctors, immigrants, gay, straight, etc. etc. But what I do not do is focus on a particular group of people, only recognize the bad among that group and label the entire group as bad; because that would make me a bigot, and I am better than that. Yes there are bad people in every group, but I also realize there are good people in every group; that's called being fair.
It's not about the people. It's about a system that encourages, enables, and rewards this behavior at every turn. And I am not just talking about California's homeless problem. There are thousands of dead and dying towns all across the United States because the capitalists decided they could make ore money exploiting foreign labor. And because the capitalists use human necessity to create monopolies that they then use to price gouge everyone for everything they need to live. To the point where most Americans are living on the edge of economic catastrophe. And the fact that you don't and won't see this happening all around you is indicative of how thoroughly this corrupt system has poisoned the minds and hearts of the nation.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
And neither is refraining from stealing.
Capitalism has one value and one value only, making money. If you can steal something and get away with it, as a good capitalist, you should do it.
Actually if you want to make money, you need to ensure a viable customer base. You can't make money if no one can afford your goods or services.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You said it is not greed to keep stuff if I earned it.
Thus why we are talking about this...

You see it as greed, I dont.

The counter-argument is: You said that if I earned something that I have a right to it, but I don't grant that for I have no reason.

Nor did you give a reason to want to give it away. My point is nothing to keep you for keeping it, no reason given to give it away.

Which can ammount to very little if taxation is increasingly bigger.

Why would you cripple you economy through excessive taxation?
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
The most practical suggestion I have to offer is to increase the minimum wage when applied to a given job on the basis of how much of a profit the employer's company is making.
Increasing the minimum wage is a popular option and you're in very good company there.

Something that many don't understand about the MW is the fact that it does not punish those who are willing to work for less, but rather it makes it illegal for an employer to hire labor w/ a low market price. Most companies can work around that by simply laying off low cost workers and replacing them w/ robots and one robot technician. It becomes a capital intensive workplace and most of the low value workers become unemployable while some become educated in robot technology.

A trend I'm seeing is that more voters are becoming aware of this and consequently many jurisdictions are increasingly reluctant to raise the MW.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Labeling someone as such I believe is inappropriate.

I can speak from personal experience that I used to view statists in a similar light. I have learned to stop. To view the opposition as naive is the worst you should allow yourself to think.

People disagree. People have different perspectives. It doesn’t make them a “psychopath”.

I suggest rethinking this.

I am not viewing the opposition per se as psychopaths though. I am talking about someone that would view a social issue such as 'there is a half million homeless people in the US' and say that it doesn't need to be solved.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
I am not viewing the opposition per se as psychopaths though. I am talking about someone that would view a social issue such as 'there is a half million homeless people in the US' and say that it doesn't need to be solved.
Still, with the term “psychopath” specifically, it is a very nuanced and specific term. Just want to point that out and say I still feel that word is inappropriate, but I understand your sentiment.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Actually if you want to make money, you need to ensure a viable customer base. You can't make money if no one can afford your goods or services.
The problem with this theory is that no capitalist wants to sell ten widgets to the middle class for ten dollars each if they can sell one widget to a rich man for a hundred dollars.

Have you been paying attention to what's happening among the car manufacturers? Motor vehicles cost as much as a working man's house. If the working man could even afford a house. Why? Because all the auto manufacturers want to sell 100k plus vehicles to rich people. That's where the big profits are. They could mak money building and selling reliable modest vehicles, but they all want the big bucks. The big profits. So they all build vehicles that are stupidly and unnecessarily oversized and complex so they can charge huge prices for them. And of course only the rich can buy them. Screw everyone else. Screw the environment. Screw any pedestrian that happens to get in front of these giant vehicles. It's all about serving the rich. That's where the money is.

Same goes for the housing market. All the builders are building McMansions because that's where the big profits are. None of them want to build affordable, reliable homes for working people. They are not catering to the overall customer base, they are catering to the rich customer's wallet.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Exceptions to the rule. People with unfortunate circumstances that prevent them from contributing to society financially.

Ok.

But during times the company loses money, there is zero value generated by the labor. I'm gonna assume you expect labors to be paid even when their labor produces zero value; is that correct? If so, what should their pay be based on?

There is still value being generated by the labor. The exception would be when the employee messes up or when the employer is asking the employee to do something that doesn't generate value.

Let me provide an example: You buy raw goods and hire someone to produce a given final product. You, however, are unable to actually make a profit out of this for some reason (such as your lack of skills when trying to sell the product), that has zilch to do with the quality of the employee's work. So even though the employee is generating value, you are the one destroying it and selling the product at a net loss. Why should your employee's payment be reduced?

Maybe the company needs those years of massive profits to make up for and balance out the years of massive losses while the labors still expect to get paid. Does this sound fair to you?

Surely if the company has an history of massive losses that have yet to be balanced, that is a different beast altogether.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You’re not paying attention. Those countries that embrace capitalism got people out of poverty more so than those countries that reject it.

Cite as many capitalist countries as you can that got a lot of people out of poverty that were neither: colonizers, imperialists, nor significantly supported by one of the former two.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You see it as greed, I dont.

What do you call putting your desire for power above everyone else's needs?

Nor did you give a reason to want to give it away. My point is nothing to keep you for keeping it, no reason given to give it away.

I am not really talking about giving it away as charity. I am talking about taxation.

Why would you cripple you economy through excessive taxation?

Because what I am suggesting wouldn't cripple the economy.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Increasing the minimum wage is a popular option and you're in very good company there.

Something that many don't understand about the MW is the fact that it does not punish those who are willing to work for less, but rather it makes it illegal for an employer to hire labor w/ a low market price. Most companies can work around that by simply laying off low cost workers and replacing them w/ robots and one robot technician. It becomes a capital intensive workplace and most of the low value workers become unemployable while some become educated in robot technology.

A trend I'm seeing is that more voters are becoming aware of this and consequently many jurisdictions are increasingly reluctant to raise the MW.

I think we are approaching the point where something akin to UBI will be mandatory. Robots/AI will be eventually more cost-effective than humans in many different fields, to the point that even paying the bare minimum necessary for human survival will be expensive in comparison.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Robots/AI will be eventually more cost-effective than humans in many different fields
This wouldn’t be a problem if humans were more smart and educated. They would just be able to hop into the robot field or coding to put it simply.

It is a problem with our education system, which I think ultimately goes back to the problem of the existence of government itself.
 
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