Let's debate "UBI"

[amorphous_constellation]

the claim here is not that robotics and AI will replace all jobs. The claim was that the net loss of jobs would raise the unemployment rate to around 30%.

I could be misunderstanding you, but your post comes off as "I don't care if 30% of the public are starving because they have no income. As long as my job is unaffected, I'm fine with it."

that's kinda drawing a lot of conclusions from what I did write.. which was to simply wonder what AI can actually do.

I don't want to see people starve, but if it is true that the AI thing would replace the white collar jobs first, then that is kind of ironic, one must admit. That doesn't seem like that was the intent.. I'm kinda the one who is looked down on as a manual laborer

 

[IndigoChild5559]

if it is true that the AI thing would replace the white collar jobs first, then that is kind of ironic, one must admit. That doesn't seem like that was the intent.. I'm kinda the one who is looked down on as a manual laborer

Yes, I agree with you that it is incredibly ironic that AI will replace white collar jobs -- these are the people who normally have the status to protect their standard of living.

Robotics and AI are replacing jobs across the spectrum, blue collar and white collar. Soon, so many positions will be gone. The paralegal? Gone. The software engineer? Gone. The business analyst? Gone. The hedge fund manager? Gone. The person who takes your order at the fast food drive through? Gone. The receptionist? Gone. The retail cashier? Gone. I mean, I could do this all day.

When I go in to see my Primary Care Physician, I find out that my appointment is not with a doctor, but a physician assistant, who pulls over a computer and consults AI.

It has begun.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Yes, I agree with you that it is incredibly ironic that AI will replace white collar jobs -- these are the people who normally have the status to protect their standard of living.

Robotics and AI are replacing jobs across the spectrum, blue collar and white collar. Soon, so many positions will be gone. The paralegal? Gone. The software engineer? Gone. The business analyst? Gone. The hedge fund manager? Gone. The person who takes your order at the fast food drive through? Gone. The receptionist? Gone. The retail cashier? Gone. I mean, I could do this all day.

When I go in to see my Primary Care Physician, I find out that my appointment is not with a doctor, but a physician assistant, who pulls over a computer and consults AI.

It has begun.

it brings to mind a certain quote I should find.. I think it was about the ancient celts, who may have been paranoid that storing information in a book, as opposed to memorizing it, would weaken the mind. The idea was that the brain is a muscle, I think. So there is a separate debate about the whole AI thing , apart from the effect on jobs: is humankind externalizing a part of the brain? Is that good, or bad.. does it free up human mental disk space for other things?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

it brings to mind a certain quote I should find.. I think it was about the ancient celts, who may have been paranoid that storing information in a book, as opposed to memorizing it, would weaken the mind. The idea was that the brain is the muscle, I think. So there is a separate debate about the whole AI thing , apart from the effect on jobs: is humankind externalizing a part of the brain? Is that good, or bad.. does it free up human mental disk space for other things?

Oh, very good point. Yeap, this is a real concern. I have even wondered specifically about myself. Since it became so easy to use search engines to find documentation, I find that I'm committing far less to memory. The quality of my writing has gone up, because I can find documentation. But what about the quality of my thinking?

On a less serious note. There was an episode of the 1995 series The Outer Limits called "Stream of Consciousness." Everyone in society had brain implants that gave them instant access to all data. One man could not get the implant due to some medical issue, and he had to actually learn to read. Suddenly, the implants develop a serious problem, and everyone is completely lost. This one man has to teach everyone to read again. I think this is a pretty good metaphor for the whole AI verses memory thing.

 

[Spice]

Oh, very good point. Yeap, this is a real concern. I have even wondered specifically about myself. Since it became so easy to use search engines to find documentation, I find that I'm committing far less to memory. The quality of my writing has gone up, because I can find documentation. But what about the quality of my thinking?

On a less serious note. There was an episode of the 1995 series The Outer Limits called "Stream of Consciousness." Everyone in society had brain implants that gave them instant access to all data. One man could not get the implant due to some medical issue, and he had to actually learn to read. Suddenly, the implants develop a serious problem, and everyone is completely lost. This one man has to teach everyone to read again. I think this is a pretty good metaphor for the whole AI verses memory thing.

I think of the bowling centers. When I first began to bowl there were pin setters running around behind the end of the lanes. Great job for teenagers. And the counter generally had a minimum of two workers, one checking in, one checking out. The one checking out not only figured up how many games you had to pay for, but often times the individual scores. And then you had the service teens taking orders and bringing snacks.

Now it's all done by a single person, at the center closest to me, and electronics. Granted the pins still get hung up sometimes, but now you press the assistance needed button and W.A.I.T, and W.A.I.T, and W.A.I.T.
I guess what monies they lose in games played they make up for in payroll, and possibly Snack Counter sales since you've got so much time on your hands you might as well walk up there and get something.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now it's all done by a single person,

I hear ya!

The thing is, if all this automation actually made life better, I'd be all for it. But it has lowered the quality of my life. There is no better metaphor for this than those stupid phone answering bots.

 

[Nakosis]

UBI - "Universal Basic Income"

It goes by other names, like Guaranteed Income or Unconditional Income.

What is it?

What's it for?

What does it do?

Why have it?

So people who don't otherwise have the means to support themselves can.

Why not have it?

Because your economy can't support it.

Has it been tried before?

IMO, SSI and the Australia Dole system is a form of it.

Is there a right way and wrong way to implement it?

The only wrong way is if it is done in a way that can't be supported by the current economy.

Are there religious reasons for or against it?

IDK

Can it help or destroy the economy?

Depends on if it is implemented in a way the current economy can or can't support.

Does it get rid of the incentive to work?

Not as implemented in Australia. If you are able body, you are required to seek work or volunteer for jobs provided by the government.

Is it socialism?

No, socialism wouldn't require UBI. It's the governments job to provide everyone who is able to work, work and pay them accordingly.

Does it contradict a free market?

No, I mean there is no "true" free market in that every government provides some regulation.
However a otherwise free market can exist along side the regulation.

Will it reduce crime?

To whatever degree the the need to support oneself is the motivation for crime. I suppose there'd no longer be a social motivation for crime.

Answer whichever questions you want & pose your own questions, as well.

I'm pressed for time, so I can't provide my own thoughts on the topic right now; I'll do that later (but you might be able to find some of my thoughts on it by scouring my other posts on other threads).

I'd think there would need to include a means test. Obviously many have the means to support themselves. Why burden the government or taxpayers if there is no need?

 

[Spice]

I hear ya!

The thing is, if all this automation actually made life better, I'd be all for it. But it has lowered the quality of my life. There is no better metaphor for this than those stupid phone answering bots.

Yes, I have two rocking chairs because of those automated service centers. The bot, no matter how I tried, could not understand that I "ordered" one, I "paid" for one, and I was "shipped" two, separately two different work orders. In attempting to get them to pick up the one still on the porch, the bot wanted to apply a refund for me. I gave up......

 

[Kfox]

It's really not different than giving Medicare to everyone over 65, including the wealthy. Warren Buffet has Medicare.

Yeah; but he shouldn't. You can't justify something that's wrong by pointing to something else that's wrong.