Let's define Religion.

[MikeF]

Yes, it could; and the word was once used in that way. Actually you still can exercise religiously, clean religiously. An older meaning for 'Religion' is 'repeatedly' or 'with regularity'.

Words evolve and change over time. Words can also be used in a variety of creative ways, through figures of speech, etc. Religiously cleaning and religiously exercising are figures of speech, not religions.

Yes, the label ‘religion’ has been inherited from other uses. The label is not what is important. What is important is that we see a variety of belief sets that seem to share certain characteristics. What are the characteristics that are shared, if any. I would argue that my definition presents characteristics that are shared by belief sets that are considered a religion.

When defining a religion you don't have to explain why people do things. You only need a tag, and really that is all you can hope for. Christians do such & such, and they commit to believe and such. You don't have to explain why just to identify what religion they are in.

A tag or label requires a meaning to be associated with it, otherwise it is simply a meaningless group of symbols.

Zen is one. Another one might be a warrior religion where the goal is to die honorably and achieve glory in death. You could also have a community religion where you commit to your community. The masons come to mind.

When you say Zen, do you mean the physical practices disassociated from Buddhism or are you referring to Zen Buddhism? If you are simply referring to Zen practice devoid of any belief about the cause, nature, and purpose of the cosmos, then it would not be a religion, by definition. Perhaps it would be considered a Health and Wellness practice.

As for the warrior religion, if the goals you describe are part of a set of beliefs that include explanations for the cause, nature, and purpose of the cosmos, say in Norse Mythology, then it would be a religion. If the goals are not associated with any of that, then it would not be a religion, it would be better described as a warrior code or warrior ethos.

And last, I would in no way consider the Mason’s or the Rotarian Club to be a religion. I cannot see any consensus for the idea that commitment can be the sole criteria by which to define religion.

 

[MikeF]

A belief or set of beliefs that manifests an ethic in adherents?

Although that may be an element of religion or part of the set of beliefs that constitute a religion, I do not find it useful as a criteria to distinguish religion from not religion. In other words, on its own, a work ethic is not a religion, a warrior ethic is not a religion, the characteristic of ethic is not unique and isolated to religion. We need characteristics that reference what we consider only part of religion.

 

[MikeF]

religion
noun

re·li·gion | \ ri-ˈli-jən \

Definition of religion

1

a: the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
b(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance​

2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

A dictionary gives us all the ways in which a word or label can be used in common speech. This includes figures of speech.

My objective is to create a clear definition associated with the second meaning of your dictionary definition that will help parse out what set of beliefs we feel constitute a religion as separate from other types of belief.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Although that may be an element of religion or part of the set of beliefs that constitute a religion, I do not find it useful as a criteria to distinguish religion from not religion. In other words, on its own, a work ethic is not a religion, a warrior ethic is not a religion, the characteristic of ethic is not unique and isolated to religion. We need characteristics that reference what we consider only part of religion.

Okay, let us say that you have list of say 10 different characteristics and supernatural is one of them, but what is in question only fits the other 9, then what?

To the best of my ability for academic explanation of what religion is, supernatural is one of them, but not the only one and not a necessary one.

Let me give you an example from mental health. Some labels are like above and in some cases they work like above.
So if religion is X different characteristics you only need Y number of X. That is standard in some approaches to diverse human behavior.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A dictionary gives us all the ways in which a word or label can be used in common speech. This includes figures of speech.

My objective is to create a clear definition associated with the second meaning of your dictionary definition that will help parse out what set of beliefs we feel constitute a religion as separate from other types of belief.

At least you are honest. But I don't feel like you, so what now?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

My objective is to create a clear definition associated with the second meaning of your dictionary definition that will help parse out what set of beliefs we feel constitute a religion as separate from other types of belief.

The description I've always gone for is that "Religion is a structured and communal System of Faith, adhering to an annual calendar of observation and celebration pertinent to worship, and upholding a set of tenets or doctrine that serve purpose as a Way of Life relevant to community-held beliefs."

This differs in a way from basic Faith and Spirituality, in that rather than personal beliefs, Unverified Personal Gnosis (UPG), etc, Religion is the beliefs as commonly held by all within that community, and is the functional act of coming together in worship of shared deities. Religion includes both Faith and Spirituality, but neither faith or spirituality require Religion.

 

[MikeF]

The description I've always gone for is that "Religion is a structured and communal System of Faith, adhering to an annual calendar of observation and celebration pertinent to worship, and upholding a set of tenets or doctrine that serve purpose as a Way of Life relevant to community-held beliefs."

This differs in a way from basic Faith and Spirituality, in that rather than personal beliefs, Unverified Personal Gnosis (UPG), etc, Religion is the beliefs as commonly held by all within that community, and is the functional act of coming together in worship of shared deities. Religion includes both Faith and Spirituality, but neither faith or spirituality require Religion.

So, it seems for you, the institutional component is a requirement for a set of beliefs to be considered a religion. Is that right?

 

[MikeF]

At least you are honest. But I don't feel like you, so what now?

Certainly, if you do not find the exercise useful, then there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, it seems for you, the institutional component is a requirement for a set of beliefs to be considered a religion. Is that right?

Yeah, that is a part of it and can differentiate from faith and spirituality.
Here is an easy one:
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts

Here is the text at the start:
"Religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshippers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life."

Notice if you accept it and analyze general human behavior, you can see that some secular political ideologies or even political systems border on religion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Certainly, if you do not find the exercise useful, then there is nothing wrong with that.

No, I take notice that you speak for a "we", that is not there because we don't feel the same edit: about what religion is.

 

[MikeF]

Okay, let us say that you have list of say 10 different characteristics and supernatural is one of them, but what is in question only fits the other 9, then what?

To the best of my ability for academic explanation of what religion is, supernatural is one of them, but not the only one and not a necessary one.

Let me give you an example from mental health. Some labels are like above and in some cases they work like above.
So if religion is X different characteristics you only need Y number of X. That is standard in some approaches to diverse human behavior.

The hope would be that we might find a succinct set of criteria that would apply to all religion. Either those belief sets that do not share one criteria cannot be considered religion, or the criteria itself is not specific to religion only and should not be used as a criteria.

Instead of speaking hypothetically, it might be helpful to speak in terms of the actual criteria presented.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The hope would be that we might find a succinct set of criteria that would apply to all religion. Either those belief sets that do not share one criteria cannot be considered religion, or the criteria itself is not specific to religion only and should not be used as a criteria.

Instead of speaking hypothetically, it might be helpful to speak in terms of the actual criteria presented.

Start by doubting that and don't do black versus white. Further stop speaking for a "we" that is not there.

For diverse human behavior you have to be open to the fact that your understanding is also human behavior, but you are not a "we". We are to diverse to you be the one criteria or indeed that the religion is X.
Given me one and only one criteria that makes a human a human.

What if religion is not special, but just a subset of human behavior that is a part of biology, social, cultural and psychological factors, but those are not distinct for religion as you use..

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So, it seems for you, the institutional component is a requirement for a set of beliefs to be considered a religion. Is that right?

Not so much institutional, but structured and communal. Many Pagan Religions have no true institution to speak of, but have a structure and gathered community.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The hope would be that we might find a succinct set of criteria that would apply to all religion. Either those belief sets that do not share one criteria cannot be considered religion, or the criteria itself is not specific to religion only and should not be used as a criteria.

Instead of speaking hypothetically, it might be helpful to speak in terms of the actual criteria presented.

... Religion is the most comprehensive and intensive manner of valuing known to human beings. ...

These are the common characteristics or family traits of those members of the category or “family” of religion. Just as with family members not every member must have every trait but most have most of the traits. The more any human phenomena demonstrates these traits the more likely it is that it will be included into this category of social institutions known as religion.

Common Characteristics: (family traits)

• notion of a deity or absolute, that which is of ultimate concern and importance
  

• ideas on the nature of human beings
  

• the idea of divine providence, destiny, fate
  

• the idea and meaning of human history
  

• problem of evil explained
  

• description of the central problem of human life and suffering idea of an afterlife-life after death
  

• a concept of the world
  

• ideas of human community and ethics-a moral code

What is Religion?

Do you notice some things. There are more than one difference that your definition. So what do WE do now???

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not so much institutional, but structured and communal. Many Pagan Religions have no true institution to speak of, but have a structure and gathered community.

Yeah, go for social behavior.

 

[MikeF]

Not so much institutional, but structured and communal. Many Pagan Religions have no true institution to speak of, but have a structure and gathered community.

The criteria of being structured and communal may feel like a necessary criteria for some religions, but how religion is practiced can vary. If we are trying to distill down to what is common, what is shared, this would not seem to qualify in my mind.

Criteria that are shared by some but not all religions would support the formation of subcategories of religion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The criteria of being structured and communal may feel like a necessary criteria for some religions, but how religion is practiced can vary. If we are trying to distill down to what is common, what is shared, this would not seem to qualify in my mind.

Criteria that are shared by some but not all religions would support the formation of subcategories of religion.

Yes, but as long as you require one criteria must be there, I have to ask: How have you come to known that this is needed?

 

[MikeF]

What is Religion?

Do you notice some things. There are more than one difference that your definition. So what do WE do now???

Again, the goal is a definition that demarcates Religion from Not Religion. Not every characteristic of a particular religion is shared by all. Criteria that are shared by some would be used to create subcategories. So if an item on your list is not considered a critical requirement of any religion then it would not be part of the broad definition of religion.

 

[MikeF]

What if religion is not special, but just a subset of human behavior that is a part of biology, social, cultural and psychological factors, but those are not distinct for religion as you use..

That any belief is the result of the factors you mention is not at issue. Of human beliefs, one can distinguish similarities and group them accordingly. One can recognize different political beliefs and label them as political and create a myriad of subcategories of political beliefs.

In the same way, one can recognize some sets of belief as similar to each other and distinct from others and label them Religion.

 

[MikeF]

Yes, but as long as you require one criteria must be there, I have to ask: How have you come to known that this is needed?

How are the criteria for any category determined. What determines Apple, or determines Dog, or determines ocean?

Categories can be useful. I don't see the concept being abandoned anytime soon.