• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Let's finally hash it out -- what religious liberties are Americans lacking?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
This came up in another thread, by a member who suggested that Trump will "restore religious liberties." But it brings up the question, does it not? What religious liberties do Americans not have, that they are so anxious to have given back to them?

I'm not going to spoil the thread by suggesting answers -- I really and truly just wish to ask the question, of Americans (or any other western democracy, if they'd care to participate). What religious liberties do you want, that you currently do not have?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
What liberties are the state supposedly repressing? I think in modern times, religion seems to want to influence the laws of society with moralisms, though the religions that had moralisms always sort of did , and probably inevitably always did influence the state. States tend to like to moderate behavior, it helps in governing and organization.

At the same time, the modern state probably does have a role in moderating religious impulses that get too radical, and if you were to bring back many religions from two thousand years ago (as they were practiced then) into the modern state, the modern state would likely want to moderate them all pretty hard.

That said, the 1st paragraph I wrote is what is relevant here, I think. And that is the idea that modern religion generally wants the 'liberty' to add another layer of law-like moralism to the population. I guess that's what you call a oxymoron right
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Sacrifices, public stonings,,

But seriously, I strongly suspect they want it to go back to before the "Four Horsemen" took a stand.
They want to be able to publicly show their hatred, bigotry, racism, etc and be praised for it instead of being called out on it.
Just as long as it doesn’t end up being like some countries in the Middle East, where they kill homosexuals. So all in all, I think we live in a pretty good country.
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Marriage license requirements, ban on polygamy, and use of psychedelic substances in religious rituals are 3 examples that come to mind.

As far as I'm aware, Native American tribes have clashed with the government (state or federal) over the use of peyote, but it seems that it has now reached a point where there's an exemption for them. That's fine, but what if someone says that cocaine, cannabis, magic mushrooms, toad venom, opioids, narcotics, or whatever is part of their religion (regardless of whether it's been a part of their religion for a long time or just started today)? Will the government leave them alone? If not, then I think we'd have a double standard.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not going to spoil the thread by suggesting answers -- I really and truly just wish to ask the question, of Americans (or any other western democracy, if they'd care to participate). What religious liberties do you want, that you currently do not have?
Does religioius equality count as a religious liberty? That's one thing we don't have in Canada (at least in Ontario). I would address this by getting rid of our taxpayer-funded Catholic and Protestant school boards, secularize their schools, and integrate them into the mainstream public system.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not sure. Restore religious liberty? Closest I can imagine it must have to do with children parents schools and libraries. Perhaps its about holidays and employers. Hopefully its not talking about blue laws or religious taxation.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
Marriage license requirements, ban on polygamy, and use of psychedelic substances in religious rituals are 3 examples that come to mind.

As far as I'm aware, Native American tribes have clashed with the government (state or federal) over the use of peyote, but it seems that it has now reached a point where there's an exemption for them. That's fine, but what if someone says that cocaine, cannabis, magic mushrooms, toad venom, opioids, narcotics, or whatever is part of their religion (regardless of whether it's been a part of their religion for a long time or just started today)? Will the government leave them alone? If not, then I think we'd have a double standard.
In addition to this people in prison have trouble accessing the ability to do their religious rituals and such if their religion isn't mainstream. I heard of people struggling when they are wiccans in prison because of certain items used in rituals can be considered dangerous- many people involve knives in wiccan rituals. It would be difficult to allow that in a prison setting. I wouldnt allow a knife with violent prisoners maybe nonviolemt ones but I would try to see if there's work arounds for violent prisoners- a stick for example makes a good substitute for an athame. So you could use an unsharpened pencil- it would have the same symbolism. There's also prop knives that actors use that dont cut anyone. Since the athame in Wicca isn't used to cut anything that could work. However there are a lot of issues people run into in general with getting the same access to religious stuff in prison. Regardless of if there's dangerous stuff involved or not.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
This came up in another thread, by a member who suggested that Trump will "restore religious liberties." But it brings up the question, does it not? What religious liberties do Americans not have, that they are so anxious to have given back to them?

I'm not going to spoil the thread by suggesting answers -- I really and truly just wish to ask the question, of Americans (or any other western democracy, if they'd care to participate). What religious liberties do you want, that you currently do not have?
If you read the first Amendment all the restrictions are placed on the Government, not the religious, citizens or press.
The First Amendment guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly, and the right to petition. It forbids Congress from both promoting one religion over others and also restricting an individual’s religious practices. It guarantees freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press or the rights of individuals to speak freely. It also guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and to petition their government.

Big brother is supposed to butt out and be a good Public Servant. Peaceful citizens have the right of free speech and religious expression as long as it is peaceful. If the religious wish to peacefully assemble to support life, Government cannot take away that freedom, with FBI intimidation. Everyone involved in such illegal Big Brother action needs to be thrown in jail, until they learn the lesson. Big Government is not supposed to censor people on social media and turn the press in a propaganda wing. Those people who broke the law need to go to jail.

The restore religious liberties, such as praying at school, as long as it is peaceful, Big Brother has to butt out or go to jail. Big Brother is not above law, even if they think they are and act like they are. We are not Communists, yet.

The scam called the separation of Church and State is being applied, wrongfully. Since Big Brother has all the restrictions, that means separation needs to be define by the Churches, since they freedom of religion and not the restrictions of Government. This is what this Amendment is all about. That Liberal scam has illegally allowed government to break the law. If the assembly of Churches determine Liberalism is a religion, based on its fake new fantasy platform, they can forbid government from promoting this fake news based religion. The DNC may need to retool, if they wish to exist in Government. The DNC needs to become more rational, and less fake news and propaganda faith driven. Government cannot allow this one chosen religion to have so much influence and power.

Trump has a lot of work to do to make this right.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
If the assembly of Churches determine Liberalism is a religion, based on its fake new fantasy platform, they can forbid government from promoting this fake news based religion.
This is ludicrous. "The assembly of Churches" (by which you can only mean Christian churches, has sole power to decide what is "religion" and what isn't? Pet owning can be a religion if they say so? NAMBLA can be a religion if THEY SAY SO?

What are you thinking? You express such hatred towards liberals, it is very hard to see how that is defined as "wellwisher."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This came up in another thread, by a member who suggested that Trump will "restore religious liberties." But it brings up the question, does it not? What religious liberties do Americans not have, that they are so anxious to have given back to them?

I'm not going to spoil the thread by suggesting answers -- I really and truly just wish to ask the question, of Americans (or any other western democracy, if they'd care to participate). What religious liberties do you want, that you currently do not have?
The right to not divulge anything about one’s religious orientation in court testimony. We lack that.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Marriage license requirements, ban on polygamy, and use of psychedelic substances in religious rituals are 3 examples that come to mind.
Marriage licenses are not a religious requirement, they are a legal one. In Canada, this is imposed by the Solemnization of Marriage Act. In the U.S., I believe that either a recognized Church or the state issue such licenses. It is imporant to note, however, that marriage is a legal agreement, and the license is a document that affirms that you and your intended have the legal right and capacity to enter into such an agreement. (Before licenses, churches used to publish "banns," which announce to the whole community the intention of a couple to marry. This was to allow the whole community to come forth with information which might lead to the marriage being illegal, like consanguinity or an existing marriage of one or the other party.

As to polygamy, which most people think means one man, several women (which is polygyny), do you include polyandry (the ability of a woman to have several husbands)? I mean, one woman can easily satisfy more men than one man can satisfy several women.

In any case, once again this is not a religious question. Polygamy (polygyny & polyandry) throughout the developed world is banned primarily for social, legal and cultural reasons. Most especially, the legal difficulties around areas like inheritance, taxation, spousal rights, and child custody. Other reasons include concerns over gender equality, coercion and abuse, and social harmony.

As to use of any substance during religious ceremony -- well you can't use something in religion that is generally illegal. One might ask the same thing about using the blood of infants during religious ceremony, and I suspect you might see the logic in not permitting that.

As far as I'm aware, Native American tribes have clashed with the government (state or federal) over the use of peyote, but it seems that it has now reached a point where there's an exemption for them. That's fine, but what if someone says that cocaine, cannabis, magic mushrooms, toad venom, opioids, narcotics, or whatever is part of their religion (regardless of whether it's been a part of their religion for a long time or just started today)? Will the government leave them alone? If not, then I think we'd have a double standard.
Just my own opinion on the above, but if you need all those to get your religious jollies, I think you may have chosen the wrong religion.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The right to not divulge anything about one’s religious orientation in court testimony. We lack that.
Now that, I agree, is a lack of religious freedom. In Canada, our Supreme Court holds that the right to hold religious beliefs is broader than the right to act on them (by gum I like that!!). So one presumes that an accused may be required to answer questions about religious belief if that belief has led to the action for which the accused is charged.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What liberties are the state supposedly repressing? I think in modern times, religion seems to want to influence the laws of society with moralisms, though the religions that had moralisms always sort of did , and probably inevitably always did influence the state. States tend to like to moderate behavior, it helps in governing and organization.

At the same time, the modern state probably does have a role in moderating religious impulses that get too radical, and if you were to bring back many religions from two thousand years ago (as they were practiced then) into the modern state, the modern state would likely want to moderate them all pretty hard.

That said, the 1st paragraph I wrote is what is relevant here, I think. And that is the idea that modern religion generally wants the 'liberty' to add another layer of law-like moralism to the population. I guess that's what you call a oxymoron right
Your response seems to touch on some important themes, and in particular, the tension between religious influence on laws and the state's role in governance.

First, you seem to be arguing that historically, religions have influenced state laws and societal norms through moral frameworks. Of course, and this is not new, but religious pluralism requires a certain amount of moderation of such impulses. These days, some religious groups want to continue influencing laws, for everyone in society, based on their particular moral beliefs, and they think being denied that right is a form of "religious repression." that some advocate for, where religion seeks to impose moral guidelines on society. Surely, if we are to live together in a religiously diverse nation, this will lead to social division and conflict.

Your second point seems to acknowledge that while religion has influenced laws, the modern state also has a role in moderating religious impulses, especially those deemed too radical. If ancient forms of religion were reintroduced in their original forms, modern states would likely try to "moderate" them to fit within contemporary legal and social frameworks, particularly to ensure that radical or extreme elements don't harm social cohesion or infringe on others' rights. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?

And yes, your last paragraph does suggest a paradox, or oxymoron, in the concept of religious liberty. It's hard not to argue that when some religious groups push for "liberty," what they really want is the freedom to impose a moral framework (or a "law-like moralism") on society. This, of course, is contradictory because true liberty would involve freedom from such moral impositions, not the creation of new ones.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It depends on how I want to interpret it.

On a basic level, religious (non-Christian) minorities continue to face significant challenges. I don't follow it as closely as I used to, but I've been aware of many problematic cases the Lady Liberty League has taken on to protect Pagan rights. Probably the biggest was getting the VA to acknowledge the pentacle as a religious symbol for veteran's gravestones after a decade of knuckle dragging on it. Symbols for other Pagan religions were able to follow in the footsteps of those efforts. They've also done smaller cases ranging from employment discrimination to hate crimes, custody battles to smear campaigns. In short, religious liberties that are supposed to be granted already are not granted uniformly to all religious traditions. That's an issue.

On a more complex level, religious (non-Christian) minorities also constantly have to deal with a culture that implicitly doesn't respect or take into account their practices. Paid leave of most places of work, instead of being religiously neutral, explicitly favors one religion's holy days. Members of this favored religion doesn't have to use their personal vacation time for their holy days, while everyone else does. Homeowner's associations and municipal codes can be written in ways that infringe on religious expression and practice on their own properties, often unintentionally since they don't think about how it will impact religious minorities. In situations where religious expression is explicitly curtailed in certain spaces, religious minorities get a free pass because what they do doesn't loo like religion to those who were writing these policies.

There aren't any easy, simple, or surefire resolutions for any of this. It just has to be handled incrementally as we go.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Does religioius equality count as a religious liberty? That's one thing we don't have in Canada (at least in Ontario). I would address this by getting rid of our taxpayer-funded Catholic and Protestant school boards, secularize their schools, and integrate them into the mainstream public system.
As would I. I never liked that we had 2 public systems (Public and Catholic) when I was growing up. Note that only one religion was given special place in those olden days, where now we have a Public system and 2 special "public" systems, for Catholics and Protestants (all Christians). Muslims, Jews, Jains, Hindus and others that would like their children educated in religious school systems must foot those costs out of their own pockets.

My sense is that "the three Rs" (reading, writing, arithmetic) are a general requirement for all students, while religion is a private matter having no bearing upon the state, and which the state has no interest in. Parents who wish to provide religious education only can send their kids to public schools, and religious instruction on their own time. If they want a holistic education that includes religion, well they can pay for private schools out of their own pockets.

In the latter case, for parents not using the public system, I would excuse them paying taxes into that system, just as families could declare for tax purposes that they supported the Public or Catholic boards.[/s]
 
Last edited:

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Marriage licenses are not a religious requirement, they are a legal one.
That's what I'm talking about, marriage licenses being a legal requirement, not a religious requirement.

By involving itself in marriage, the state/government in the US is infringing on the 1st clause of the 1st Amendment, and states rights doesn't give them an excuse to ignore the Bill of Rights.

In the US, I don't need a "friend license" to be friends with anyone else.

Marriage licenses became a thing because the government wanted to prevent interracial marriages, and because the eugenics movement wanted to prohibit individuals with disabilities, mental illnesses, and whatever they deemed "genetically inferior" qualities (whatever that means).

In Canada, this is imposed by the Solemnization of Marriage Act. In the U.S., I believe that either a recognized Church or the state issue such licenses.
I don't know anything about Canada, particularly with marriage and freedom from and of religion; all I know is that Canada is a monarchy, the monarch is the head of an official state church, and there is no constitutional separation of church and state in Canada, as there is here in the US (where I live).

It is imporant to note, however, that marriage is a legal agreement,
It's also part of something religious called a sacrament (a ceremony or ritual that members seek, are required, or are expected to achieve as a member of their religious organization for achieving "divine grace").

In the Roman Catholic church, they are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony.

None of these sacraments require a license, except marriage; this means that the state can interfere or prevent someone religious from being able to achieve divine grace (a religious exercise); since the 2nd Clause of the 1st Amendment prevents the state from prohibiting the free exercise of religion, it is infringing on it by requiring a marriage license.

By involving itself in legal agreements of marriage - not only by requiring marriage licenses, but also because religious folks have to use the state-operated "divorce" court.

Even by involving itself in marriage for atheist or non-religious couples, I think it's still infringing on the 1st Clause of the 1st Amendment, since that entails laws that essentially respect a certain sort of establishment of religion or imposes ceremonies, rituals, or agreements based on an establishment of religion.

I think it's only up to the "church" (or whatever establishment of religion the couple are members of) to enforce marriage contracts just like it enforces all its other rules and penalizing members who break the rules by requiring confession, shunning, excommunication, expelling them from their church, telling them that they're going to burn in hell if they don't shape up, or whatever it is they do.

If a couple wishes to have a legal agreement, one that can be enforced by the courts, then I think that's fine & there's nothing that prevents the government from being involved in that; it's the same as a business partnership or contract, and the exact same system can be utilized.

When 2 individuals want to own 50% each in a retail store or restaurant, this is an example of a regular type of business partnership; the same can be done with individuals who want to do the same with a home, all the things they invest in to put in and use in that home, some vehicles, and whatever amount of money they contribute to this household. The thing is that currently there's a difference between a divorce and the dissolution of a business partnership; with a dissolution of a 50/50 business partnership between 2 individuals in something like a retail store or restaurant, only what was designated as being part of that business (i.e. the retail store or restaurant itself) and the amount of money in the business's bank account gets split 50/50, not the homes or cars or private bank accounts of the 2 business owners.

On the other hand, with a marriage and divorce, everything the couple owns can be fair game, no matter what it is; they have to convince the divorce court that a certain amount of money, certain items, or certain properties are off limits, and the court can utilize its own loopholes to easily get around any of that (the divorce in the movie Liar Liar is one example that comes to mind).

Generally this cannot happen with business partnerships like owning half of a retail store or restaurant & yes there may be rare exceptions, but these kinds of exceptions are things that can happen regardless of the existence of a 50/50 ownership business partnership, such as because one is suing the other for fraud or breach of contract that involved no portion of ownership of a business or property, etc.

I am aware of things like cohabitation agreements, domestic partnerships, civil unions, etc., but I haven't explored them to see if any of those fit this sort of business partnership laws based arrangements.

I'm not opposed to the state having policies like tax breaks or allowing for filing jointly per se, but I it's unacceptable to me for the state to have a policy based on only allowing & recognizing marriages as part of the requirement or qualification for things like that. If any couple wants to receive a tax break for being together that already exists for married couples, or to file jointly, they should be able to simply do it without having to get permission from the state or having to prove anything such as by having to present a marriage license, etc.

From what I understand, members of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion have an agreement that they can make medical decisions for each other when they're in the hospital; if a hospital lets spouses make medical decisions for their spouses, but doesn't let Jehovah's Witnesses make medical decisions for their members, and it's because of any state rule, regulation, requirement, restriction, whatever, then that's infringement of separation of church and state.

(to be continued)
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
(continued)

and the license is a document that affirms that you and your intended have the legal right and capacity to enter into such an agreement.
Yes, I'm aware of the idea or narrative about that.

(Before licenses, churches used to publish "banns," which announce to the whole community the intention of a couple to marry. This was to allow the whole community to come forth with information which might lead to the marriage being illegal, like consanguinity or an existing marriage of one or the other party.
Interesting; I didn't know this, but it serves as an example of the church doing its own enforcement.

As to polygamy, which most people think means one man, several women (which is polygyny), do you include polyandry (the ability of a woman to have several husbands)?
Yes, and any combination of zero or more men with zero or more women involving 3 or more individuals.

I mean, one woman can easily satisfy more men than one man can satisfy several women.
Perhaps, but I think this is out of the scope of the thread topic. LOL

In any case, once again this is not a religious question.
Tell that to George Reynolds.


Polygamy (polygyny & polyandry) throughout the developed world is banned primarily for social, legal and cultural reasons.
One can make an analogous argument for defending slavery; that doesn't justify slavery being legal.

Most especially, the legal difficulties around areas like inheritance, taxation, spousal rights, and child custody.
They can already be handled by the state with legal documents or agreements (wills, power of attorney, medical directives, cohabitation agreements, domestic partnerships, civil unions, etc.), or things can be arranged with their church or religious establishment; an example is having godparents for their children.

Other reasons include concerns over gender equality,
This is another reason for the state to stay out of marriage; gender hierarchy is part of a religious & traditional marriage under contemporary conventions here in the US, which is how marriage is predominantly practices here in the US (being religious & traditional, not necessarily gender-based hierarchy).

I am for gender equality, and religious/traditional based marriage is not compatible with gender equality. This is probably the main reason around 85% of marriages are struggling or fail and end in divorce.

coercion and abuse,
Problems that can and do happen in marriages & more reasons for the state to stay out of marriage.

and social harmony.
The only thing I can think of about the idea of "social harmony" is the existence of a societal bias in favor of marriage, society being geared for marriage, and a society with an infrastructure that caters to marriage, which in turn is bias/gearing/infrastructure for a religious concept.

As to use of any substance during religious ceremony -- well you can't use something in religion that is generally illegal.
There are Native American tribes that can & something done for religious reasons being illegal is unconstitutional here in the US.

In general, things without a victim are only illegal because the government conjured up a law that makes it illegal, and that infringes on other constitutional rights, such as liberty & goes against pursuit of happiness as a right described in the Declaration of Independence.

One might ask the same thing about using the blood of infants during religious ceremony, and I suspect you might see the logic in not permitting that.
I think that anything that involves doing something to someone else who isn't consenting or capable of consenting, like an infant and drawing blood from them for religious purposes is not covered by religious freedom. One's religious freedom ends where someone else's rights begin. Essentially you're referring to something that involves a victim & if there's a victim involved, then there's no religious right to it. That's why we can't sacrifice virgins to angry volcanoes, etc. I also include circumcision and female genital mutilation (unless they're consenting adults).

Just my own opinion on the above, but if you need all those to get your religious jollies, I think you may have chosen the wrong religion.
Personally I don't and have never done such recreational substances; I've never even used tobacco in any form; the only thing I do (and I only do this with meals or socially) is drink alcohol. I think others who want to do these things - regardless of whether or not it's for religious purposes - ought to be free to decide for themselves whether or not they want to.

Maybe one can argue that government can intervene until they become adults, but when the government intervenes until 21, it's crossing a line. This brings up another example that didn't occur to me until now: drinking wine for communion (religious ceremony/ritual purposes). I don't know if it was alcoholic, but I was raised Roman Catholic, and I was drinking wine for communion before I was a teenager.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
It's hard not to argue that when some religious groups push for "liberty," what they really want is the freedom to impose a moral framework (or a "law-like moralism") on society.
Liberty is a pretty squirrely word, and it's probably best if we kind of accept that it is like that. I think there should be more national discussion on what the word actually means, in our modern context. For example, I didn't watch the presidential debate, but if I was the moderator, I would have asked the candidates to describe what the word liberty means, in depth. It might mean something different for every era. Or maybe it's a word that hasn't landed on a concrete meaning yet

The main thing that some religions may want to do at the present, is to possibly stop forms of birth control, and maybe to stop gay marriage again, I'm not sure. There is the seperate question of if the people care that this happens, but it is a third separate question, I think, to ask if the government cares. The government might have a totally separate opinion on why birth control should be moderated, separate from religion, and separate from the people. We are in situation where big nations are almost at war, and are putting out statements boasting about large armies. And as well, big nations compete in their GDP measure, which has something to do with growing the population to make more money
If ancient forms of religion were reintroduced in their original forms, modern states would likely try to "moderate" them to fit within contemporary legal and social frameworks, particularly to ensure that radical or extreme elements don't harm social cohesion or infringe on others' rights. You would agree with that, wouldn't you?
Ultimately yes, I would not want to bring back many of the actual historical practices that seem to have been associated with the more original religious forms, as it seems as though violence was often inflicted on living organisms, sometimes without consent from them. Though one thing that religions seem to have done historically, is to convince followers that they want to go through with things that are irrational. At least I suspect that's the case.

I suspect as well that some ancient religions encouraged behavior that might have actually been more libertine than what we see now. I think we might see this within early Christianity, where it is possible that Gnosticism, which might have been very, very different, was struggling to take greater hold over overall direction. It is also the case that surveillance has increased probably ninety nine percent since ancient times, so arguably lewd forms of religion would not be tolerated by government, or the people. Which is good, I think

At the very least, a religious follower will likely sink a lot of time and energy into following a religion.... that is significant for some reason - it is at least a sacrifice of time in an individual's life. Though I lost my train of thought about why that is important in another way , as I went to work on a different paragraph just now

In short, it is easily seen how religion is a complicated thing for humans to navigate, and its interaction with government is complex, as government itself is complex. I'm trying to be concise, though it is difficult
 
Last edited:
Top