Let's not talk about the Big Bang

[Polymath257]

I understand and see it as wordplay, the truth is that no time before the BB time began means there was no spacetime, and time begins with the BB. It is deceitful to say this is not true. No spacetime means no existence.

Yes, time began with the BB. There is no 'before'. There is no 'arising'. There is no 'cause'. There is no 'coming from'.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In the same way God started.

Ciao

- viole

Yeah, both are unknown if you accept limits to knowledge.

 

[Polymath257]

From a previous post.....

"general relativity leads to the viewpoint that the universe began at the big bang."

It began at the BB. Prior there was no time, no space, no etc. In other words it wasn't and then it was... It poofed into existence.

No, it did not 'poof'. There was no before to poof from. It simply only exists back to a certain time.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, time began with the BB. There is no 'before'. There is no 'arising'. There is no 'cause'. There is no 'coming from'.

The trick about existence is that it is a cognitive abstract. It only works if you believe in it. And the world can be explaining without both God and existence.

 

[Polymath257]

It didn't happen because timespace never had a beginning it always was.

Prove it. The BB model says different and fits all the current evidence. That trumps any philosophical musing you make.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, it did not 'poof'. There was no before to poof from. It simply only exists back to a certain time.

You really have to learn when you claim something as a cognitive abstract or as an empirical observation.

 

[viole]

Yeah, both are unknown if you accept limits to knowledge.

Speak for you. We know a lot about spacetime, and its ontology, in the meantime.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

Space itself is 3D, but because it continues to exist, the 3D space travels in time as the 4th dimension, ie., the 3D space just continues to exist and this continuation of existence is called time and so the 4D is spacetime.

Nope. There is no 'traveling' in the 4D view. There are different cross sections.

Just like there is no traveling with different latitude lines, but rather the whole simply exists, in the 4D view, space is simply a cross section at a particular time and the whole of space and time exists as a single geometric object.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Speak for you. We know a lot about spacetime, and its ontology, in the meantime.

Ciao

- viole

Ontology is philosophy other than methodology naturalism.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I answered this above. It is NOT a red-shift in the technical sense. It does not affect all wavelengths proportionally, like a red-shift does.

Compton scattering *can* produce a reddening, but it does so in a manner very different than a Doppler, gravitational, or expansion red-shift. And that is how we know that the cosmological red-shift is NOT due to Compton scattering.

That said, Compton scattering *is* studied and is one aspect of the anisotropies in the CMBR.

So, you are getting all of the specifics wrong when you say Compton scattering produces a red-shift.t

Solar red shift is due to Compton scattering of solar radiation through the electrons in the solar atmosphere

Compton effect interpretation of solar red shift​

Compton effect interpretation of solar red shift - Solar Physics
The hypothesis that the solar red shift is due to Compton scattering of solar radiation through the electrons in the solar atmosphere predicts a variation in magnitude of the red shift with position in good agreement with observation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No. Read the theory.

No, there was no 'from nothing'. BB spacetime *exists*.

Yes, that's the theory of BBers, early days,

 

[Ben Dhyan]

BB spacetime exists only after a start time. There is no before that time.

Understood, but the start time began from the no before that start time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No. Read the theory.

No, there was no 'from nothing'. BB spacetime *exists*.

BB spacetime exists because no time became time.

 

[Polymath257]

He realized the BB from nothing scenario would be impossible to defend in the long run, but he only muddied the waters further by saying the time was bent time, whatever that is.

That wasn't why he changed his mind. He changed his mind because he became convinced of particular alternative proposals. Of course, those alternatives have no observational backing at this point, so they are just as speculative as quantum gravity.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In standard BB cosmology, the BB did not 'arise'.

Arise means began.

 

[Polymath257]

Understood, but the start time began from the no before that start time.

No. No 'from'. The word 'from' implies a previous time. And that is not the case.

If we consider distances from some center point, there is a distance of 0, but no smaller distance. That 0 doesn't 'come from' a negative radius.

 

[Polymath257]

Arise means began.

No. That is your basic mistake. To arise means a process involving time. A start simply means a time for which there is no previous existence.

 

[Polymath257]

BB spacetime exists because no time became time.

No 'become'. Simply 'is'.

 

[Polymath257]

Then prove it, provide a copy of, or link to, the scientific consensus BB model so I can verify.

Well, the *consensus* is that general relativity alone (so the basic BB model) will start to fail when the energy levels get to the realm of quantum gravity. There is no consensus about what happens before that point. This would be about 10^(-33) seconds into the expansion and before.

But *in the BB model*, there is a start to time at the BB. That is what the math says.

We *know* it will fail at some point. But, of the different models we have of quantum gravity, some allow for an infinite previous time (usually in the context of a multiverse) and some do not. We do not know which, if any, are correct. So the question of whether time started is not resolved in the real universe/multiverse.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Nope. There is no 'traveling' in the 4D view. There are different cross sections.

Just like there is no traveling with different latitude lines, but rather the whole simply exists, in the 4D view, space is simply a cross section at a particular time and the whole of space and time exists as a single geometric object.

I never said the 4D travels in time, I said the 3D space travels in time. It is called a figure of speech.