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Lets say Heaven does exist.

Blackdog22

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Even in the off chance that Heaven does in fact exist, what chance does anyone have of this place being "perfect."

Was it not God who made the Heavens and Earth "perfect?" Did they not both fall into turmoil and sin? Where did Sin come from in the first place and what makes you so sure it will be gone in this "new" heaven and earth?

God is 0 for 2 on perfect creations that we are aware of. If I was a gambling man I would bet that the rest of his creations are going to be just as, well, imperfect.
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
How is God 0 for 2? If heaven exists, we have no idea about it. As for it falling into turmoil, that is simply later legends that arose out of the idea of Satan. So really, you would have to really pick and choose what sources you wanted in order to make your point.

And doesn't the Bible say that God created the heavens and Earth and saw that it was good? I don't recall it saying perfect. In fact, good and perfect are different terms.

As to what chance it is perfect? If we assume God created it, and God created it perfect, then there is a 100% chance it is perfect. As to what perfect means in this context is a completely different discussion.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Blackdog22 said:
Even in the off chance that Heaven does in fact exist, what chance does anyone have of this place being "perfect."

Was it not God who made the Heavens and Earth "perfect?" Did they not both fall into turmoil and sin? Where did Sin come from in the first place and what makes you so sure it will be gone in this "new" heaven and earth?

God is 0 for 2 on perfect creations that we are aware of. If I was a gambling man I would bet that the rest of his creations are going to be just as, well, imperfect.
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God didn't make them "perfect." God made them "good." There's a difference.

Why do you always take things out of their context and twist them around? "Heaven" isn't a "place," it's more an "idea" we hold about God and our relationship with God. That idea does exist, because many people hold that idea. Therefore, since the idea is that "heaven is perfect," it is!
 
Gharib

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Blackdog22 said:
Even in the off chance that Heaven does in fact exist, what chance does anyone have of this place being "perfect."

Was it not God who made the Heavens and Earth "perfect?" Did they not both fall into turmoil and sin? Where did Sin come from in the first place and what makes you so sure it will be gone in this "new" heaven and earth?

God is 0 for 2 on perfect creations that we are aware of. If I was a gambling man I would bet that the rest of his creations are going to be just as, well, imperfect.
Click to expand...

you need to study religion.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
where did sin come from?
wasn't lucifer in heaven when he revolted against god...didn't he take a 3rd of the angels with him?
so yeah i can see why it's 0 for 2...
so either way good or perfect...who's to say heaven is a good place or a perfect place?
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
waitasec said:
where did sin come from?
wasn't lucifer in heaven when he revolted against god...didn't he take a 3rd of the angels with him?
so yeah i can see why it's 0 for 2...
so either way good or perfect...who's to say heaven is a good place or a perfect place?
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Can you point to where in the Bible, Lucifer revolted against God and took a 3rd of the angels? Because I don't think it is in the Bible. It is a later idea.
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
disciple123 said:
Isaiah Chap 14
Revelation Chap 12
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Not in Isaiah 14. The idea of Satan, by the modern Christian understanding, never appears in the OT at all.

As for Revelation 12 (I will assume for the moment that it does have to do with the end times, and is not actually talking about Rome, which is the modern scholarly consensus). We are talking about something that will happen later on. It is talking about the future, not what has already happened.
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
Blackdog22 said:
Even in the off chance that Heaven does in fact exist, what chance does anyone have of this place being "perfect."

Was it not God who made the Heavens and Earth "perfect?" Did they not both fall into turmoil and sin? Where did Sin come from in the first place and what makes you so sure it will be gone in this "new" heaven and earth?

God is 0 for 2 on perfect creations that we are aware of. If I was a gambling man I would bet that the rest of his creations are going to be just as, well, imperfect.
Click to expand...

Who says that the heavens and the earth were ever supposed to be perfect?

And for that matter, who says Heaven is supposed to be perfect?
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
disciple123 said:
Job chap 1& 2
1 chron chap 21
Zech chap 3
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Job 1 and 2 speaks about the Adversary, which in Hebrew is ha Satan. It is not a proper name. In the context, the adversary appears to be part of the heavenly host.

1 Chronicles is a different case. However, compared to 2 Samuel 24, we see a big difference. 2 Samuel uses God instead of Satan which gives us a clue. In context, Satan probably refers to a human adversary.

Zechariah 3 speaks of the Accuser which in Hebrew is ha Satan.
 
Blackdog22

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Levite said:
Who says that the heavens and the earth were ever supposed to be perfect?

And for that matter, who says Heaven is supposed to be perfect?
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So do you believe that the plan is to go to an imperfect place when we die? What exactly is hell then according to this belief?

As for God making Heaven and Earth good, the point still remains the same. If Earth was once good then something changed that brought about bad parts of it. If Heaven was good then something happened that caused Satan, Gods angel, to rebel.

So the argument just changes to, If our future Heaven is supposed to be good, and God has made 2 "good things" that turned out rather bad. Then what chance does anyone have of this future heaven being anything good?

The Bible also states that a new heaven and new earth will be made and the old will be washed away. Id imagine if our current Heaven and Earth was as "good" as God hoped it would be it wouldn't need a revamping.
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
Blackdog22 said:
So do you believe that the plan is to go to an imperfect place when we die? What exactly is hell then according to this belief?
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Jews don't believe in Hell.

And as for the World to Come (the closest we get to Heaven) being "perfect," I would say that nothing except God can be perfect. The World To Come will be imperfect, even if only insomuch as it is not God, and even when we are there, our knowledge of God will still be incomplete (because none can ever have total and complete knowledge of God except God).

As for God making Heaven and Earth good, the point still remains the same. If Earth was once good then something changed that brought about bad parts of it. If Heaven was good then something happened that caused Satan, Gods angel, to rebel.
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When, in Genesis, God says that the Earth is "very good," that doesn't mean it was perfect. Earth was never perfect. It means that God was pleased with it, and felt that it had turned out well by whatever standards He had. God has always been the only source of both good and evil, as it says in Isaiah 45:7.

And as for Satan and the rebellion of the angels, Jews don't believe in either.

So the argument just changes to, If our future Heaven is supposed to be good, and God has made 2 "good things" that turned out rather bad. Then what chance does anyone have of this future heaven being anything good?
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Something can be very, very good, and not noticeably negative in any way, and still not be perfect.

The Bible also states that a new heaven and new earth will be made and the old will be washed away. Id imagine if our current Heaven and Earth was as "good" as God hoped it would be it wouldn't need a revamping.
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I don't know where in the Bible it says this. Maybe you meant in the Christian Bible, in which case I can't help you, because I don't believe in that.
 
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