Let's talk about our body hair.

[whereismynotecard]

I am a human being, so I've got hair all over my body, and I bet you guys do too, unless you shave it all off.

I want to tell you a story about the first time I felt pressured into shaving off some of my body hair... Hair which was not bothering me at all up until that point:

Once upon a time I was a little ten year old girl. I had tiny little hairs on my arm pits and legs, and I didn't care, because why would I? They were short and faint enough that no one would even notice them unless they got up really close and searched them out. They didn't get in the way of anything or make me feel bad. They had always been there. They were normal.

Then one day when a little boy in my fifth grade art class was making fun of me for some reason, he said something along the lines of "she probably hasn't shaved her arm pits in a while." I don't even remember what exactly he said... Whatever it was, it made me feel like I was wrong to have never shaved the tiny little hairs off my arm pits. Some stupid boy who has never in his life been pressured to shave any hair on his body made me feel bad about my body hair existing. And he didn't even see it. He didn't even see that I had hair on my arm pits, but he made me feel bad about having it. Whatever stupid remark he made led me to believe that since I, unlike him, was female, I could not have hair on my armpits. It would be gross and embarrassing for me to exist as a human being in the same manner he did - with naturally growing hair on my armpits. So I started shaving my armpits. A boy who was raised to believe his body hair was perfectly fine made me feel bad about mine.

And I shaved my armpits pretty much every day for the next sixteen years. But this September, I decided I shouldn't have to, so I stopped. From now on, I will shave my body hair only when I feel like it. I happen to like how my legs feel when they are smooth, so I'll shave them - because I want to - not because some idiot told me I should feel ugly or gross otherwise.

I might later try to train myself not to care about my leg hair, because I know if I'd never shaved it in the first place, I wouldn't care about it. My desire to have smooth legs stems from society conditioning me to feel weird otherwise. I don't want to force myself to grow my leg hair just to prove a point when it's uncomfortable, but I can't ignore the fact that my uncomfortable feelings are irrational and unfair. I'm sure I'd feel compelled to shave my arms too if I'd been told I had to in order to look normal since I was a pre-teen. But no one pressured me into doing that, so my arms are still naturally hairy, and it doesn't feel weird at all.

One step at a time. My arm pit hair is glorious. It must be a half-inch long by now, and I don't even really notice it unless I'm in the shower or specifically looking for it. It's harmless, and it's here to stay, for now. I haven't lived in the hottest days of summer with armpit hair before though, so maybe next summer I'll want it gone. The last time I had armpit hair was when I was ten years old, so you could barely even see it. This is the longest my armpit hair as ever been, so I'm not sure if it'll be comfortable in the summer. We'll wait and see. Summer has just now gotten over around here, so I've got the better part of a year to grow out my lovely armpit locks before I have to decide if I want to keep them. Whatever I decide though, it's going to be based on how I feel, and not on how some stupid boy feels.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself love a hairless body, mmmm, so smooth.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Being a guy who likes guys, the visceral disgust that a lot of straight dudes have about body hair just seems kinda ridiculous to me. I'm not into "bear" or "otter" types but I don't mind a bit of arm hair or leg hair for instance and a "treasure trail" on an otherwise smooth torso can be really nice sometimes. One of my exes was definitely more in the psychoslice camp though and so I actually shaved my legs for a while. It's definitely more trouble than it's worth, if you ask me.

 

[Terese]

You don't have to shave if you don't want to. It's all up to you. People who say you have to are expressing social standards.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I like to have hairy face

 

[whereismynotecard]

I like to have hairy face

I sometimes long to have a beard. The men of Middle Earth make beards look so good. :'(

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It's all just fashion. Nothing wrong with hair unless it gets in the way.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

When I lived in Spain in the 50s the women and girls were totally hairy Men actually preferred it that way.
I used to go swimming in Madrid, about the only hairless ones were foreigners, or in th few hotel top pools, the very cosmopolitan young ladies of wealth.
At that time there was a distinct divide between the latin races an the anglo saxons, in the way hair was viewed.
I have no Idea what the middle eastern women did at that time. (Or now for that matter)

 

[Penumbra]

I had laser hair removal for some areas, so I have little to no hair where I don't want it. For remaining hairs, I just run an epilator over the skin once in a while and it keeps it smooth for a lot longer than shaving.

I'd like to think I do it for me, not for others. I like how hairless skin looks and feels on myself. Naturally though, if I had never even heard of the idea of hair removal, I probably would not have thought to invent the idea.

 

[Sand Dancer]

tice it unless I'm in the shower or specifically looking for it. It's harmless, and it's here to stay, for now. I haven't lived in the hottest days of summer with armpit hair before though, so maybe next summer I'll want it gone. The last time I had armpit hair was when I was ten years old, so you could barely even see it. This is the longest my armpit hair as ever been, so I'm not sure if it'll be comfortable in the summer. We'll wait and see. Summer has just now gotten over around here, so I've got the better part of a year to grow out my lovely armpit locks before I have to decide if I want to keep them. Whatever I decide though, it's going to be based on how I feel, and not on how some stupid boy feels.

In seventh grade, my friend said, "Don't you shave your legs?" I looked young and had never thought about it, but she made me feel bad, so I started having my mom shave my legs. I had laser hair removal done on my pits and Brazilian area and epilate my legs. I go weeks without doing anything and live in Florida, so I wear shorts a lot. I am not too self conscious about it, but also I am in my early 50s, so I am past the trying to impress someone stage. I'd love to stop epilating. You go, girl!!!

 

[Deidre]

I don't have much hair on my body, through waxing/shaving. I prefer that.

On guys ...I like facial hair and some hair on the chest. No hair on the back. And hair on the arms and legs. I've dated guys into swimming and bodybuilding though, and for their sports they have shaved their chests, etc. It looked good, but I prefer some hair on guys.

 

[whereismynotecard]

so I am past the trying to impress someone stage.

I'm pretty much past that too.

 

[Curious George]

I am a human being, so I've got hair all over my body, and I bet you guys do too, unless you shave it all off.

I want to tell you a story about the first time I felt pressured into shaving off some of my body hair... Hair which was not bothering me at all up until that point:

Once upon a time I was a little ten year old girl. I had tiny little hairs on my arm pits and legs, and I didn't care, because why would I? They were short and faint enough that no one would even notice them unless they got up really close and searched them out. They didn't get in the way of anything or make me feel bad. They had always been there. They were normal.

Then one day when a little boy in my fifth grade art class was making fun of me for some reason, he said something along the lines of "she probably hasn't shaved her arm pits in a while." I don't even remember what exactly he said... Whatever it was, it made me feel like I was wrong to have never shaved the tiny little hairs off my arm pits. Some stupid boy who has never in his life been pressured to shave any hair on his body made me feel bad about my body hair existing. And he didn't even see it. He didn't even see that I had hair on my arm pits, but he made me feel bad about having it. Whatever stupid remark he made led me to believe that since I, unlike him, was female, I could not have hair on my armpits. It would be gross and embarrassing for me to exist as a human being in the same manner he did - with naturally growing hair on my armpits. So I started shaving my armpits. A boy who was raised to believe his body hair was perfectly fine made me feel bad about mine.

And I shaved my armpits pretty much every day for the next sixteen years. But this September, I decided I shouldn't have to, so I stopped. From now on, I will shave my body hair only when I feel like it. I happen to like how my legs feel when they are smooth, so I'll shave them - because I want to - not because some idiot told me I should feel ugly or gross otherwise.

I might later try to train myself not to care about my leg hair, because I know if I'd never shaved it in the first place, I wouldn't care about it. My desire to have smooth legs stems from society conditioning me to feel weird otherwise. I don't want to force myself to grow my leg hair just to prove a point when it's uncomfortable, but I can't ignore the fact that my uncomfortable feelings are irrational and unfair. I'm sure I'd feel compelled to shave my arms too if I'd been told I had to in order to look normal since I was a pre-teen. But no one pressured me into doing that, so my arms are still naturally hairy, and it doesn't feel weird at all.

One step at a time. My arm pit hair is glorious. It must be a half-inch long by now, and I don't even really notice it unless I'm in the shower or specifically looking for it. It's harmless, and it's here to stay, for now. I haven't lived in the hottest days of summer with armpit hair before though, so maybe next summer I'll want it gone. The last time I had armpit hair was when I was ten years old, so you could barely even see it. This is the longest my armpit hair as ever been, so I'm not sure if it'll be comfortable in the summer. We'll wait and see. Summer has just now gotten over around here, so I've got the better part of a year to grow out my lovely armpit locks before I have to decide if I want to keep them. Whatever I decide though, it's going to be based on how I feel, and not on how some stupid boy feels.

I think it is important to point out several things here.

Firstly, I have heard the use of the phrase, " I bet she doesn't shave her pits" used in a derisive manner. It is a somewhat complex expression, and expresses contempt or disdain for a specific group of women.

That a fifth grader, who likely had not a hair on his body that was below his head, would use such a phrase probably occurred because he had heard the phrase elsewhere.

The idea behind the phrase is to associate the woman with hippies or feminists, which in turn associates the woman with poor hygiene, homosexuality, man hating, or any combination of stereotypical groupings that are negatively associated with "hippies" or feminists.

While it is possible that the 10 year-old understood what he said (there are plenty of precocious children) I sincerely doubt he did. So, I would assert that it is not some "stupid" boy, making a comment, but rather a boy who has unfortunately been exposed to derisive treatment of women, and who hopefully, 16 years later, has overcome these barriers to respect.

Next, I think it is important to understand from where such language comes. We see this labeling a lot with feminism. "She is probably a dyke" or "she hates men" or "she..." These are ad hominem attacks that come in large part as a backlash to opposing the status quo. The idea of attacking a woman's personal appearance is an emotional call to dislike and reject the woman, and consequently her ideas, moreover it serves as a threat to bystanders to accept the status quo.

Now, both sexes try to increase sex appeal to potential mates. There is nothing wrong with a woman shaving her armpits to appear more attractive for another woman or a man. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a woman choosing not to shave their arm pits for this reasoning (or not to shave to appear more attractive).

However, with these ideas noted, I would like to ask several questions. Why is less body hair seen as attractive? I think one possible answer is the pursuit of smooth skin and youth. Youth, for better or worse is given a premium in our society. This contributes, imho, to a lack of respect for the elderly and an unhealthy obsession with the pursuit of a youthful appearance. But, that is another thread...

Returning to the op, I think it is important to ask why women's armpits and not men's? In recent years, men have been more encouraged to shave faces, chests, legs, and backs. Armpits however, a largely left untouched (at least in my perception).


Obviously from the op, we can see the product of placing gendered expectations on people can manifest feelings of shame in children, who likely do not understand the expectations or the appeal. I do not think it is feasible to completely remove expectations. Nor, would we want to do so.

What, then, is the solution? We can talk about respecting differences, but I am not convinced that this is internally consistent or manageable. While it is important to respect differences and teach tolerance, our brains are tuned to perceive patterns and deviations, and will likely see children in any culture discussing and branding differences they understand let alone the ones they do not. Nor, do I think a discussion of acceptance is likely going to eradicate undercurrents of racism, sexism, and the like. Even if we had a system without disparity, we would find people pushing for privilege based on feelings of entitlement for immutable characteristics. Consequently, we will continue to have parents ridiculing others, and children parroting these sentiments with or without full understanding and subsequently shaming others.

But even understanding this, I am not willing to just accept that we must "let it alone." #still need feminism. It is important to analyze issues with respect to the impact on race, gender, ability etc. Now such notions may be labeled as "sjw" or "too pc" however this seems more of the same emotional appeal: Labeling an element with a loaded term, and playing on people's preconceived notions in attempt to discount another's opinion.

However, in teaching people to analyze their experiences, others' experiences, and the communities issue with consideration of gender, or race or some other facet of identity, we enable those people to better understand their world and the consequences of actions.

I cannot take away the shame a ten year old girl felt when a normal boy engaged in teasing by parroting some derisive remark. However, I can give that girl tools to understand that she has no reason to be ashamed, and I can give that boy the tools to understand why such remarks are inappropriate.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't shave my armpits either, even for summer. I started to wax them when I was 14 years old and can't remember the last time I did.
I was going to go on a date with this guy who changed his mind when I told him I don't shave my armpits. He said he thinks he has a phobia, which is ridiculous because he is male and has hair on his face and up his bum crease, so what phobia??!!!
I wish you luck on being comfortable for summer.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

@Curious George I think there are a few things going on here. Consumerism being one of them - making people feel inadequate so they will buy products they do not need.
The fact that women are expected to remove body hair in contrast with men and body hair is a sign of maturity suggests there are probably some infantaliasing/paedophilic overtones to these practises. In addition to that hair removal is often painful and masochistic which leads women to appear non-threatening to men.

 

[Curious George]

@Curious George I think there are a few things going on here. Consumerism being one of them - making people feel inadequate so they will buy products they do not need.
The fact that women are expected to remove body hair in contrast with men and body hair is a sign of maturity suggests there are probably some infantaliasing/paedophilic overtones to these practises. In addition to that hair removal is often painful and masochistic which leads women to appear non-threatening to men.

I thought of the infanalizing, but I that doesn't comport with the concept of breasts, a welcomed sign of sexual maturity. I definitely think it has to do with our cultural obsession of youth in general though.

The less threatening sounds absolutely correct, I just wonder if I can find any research related to hair as masculinity/potency. I bet there is some.

Does anyone know how pit shaving came about?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I thought of the infanalizing, but I that doesn't comport with the concept of breasts, a welcomed sign of sexual maturity. I definitely think it has to do with our cultural obsession of youth in general though.

The less threatening sounds absolutely correct, I just wonder if I can find any research related to hair as masculinity/potency. I bet there is some.

Does anyone know how pit shaving came about?

I think it's less about making women look exactly like a child and more about making them appear childlike or fragile in comparison to men.
I also think armless dresses has a role to play. Probably as they became more common place so did removing armpit hair.
Although armless t-shirts and shorts didn't result in men removing body hair so I definitely think body hair somehow became a symbol of power.

 

[Wirey]

I donated a fortune to "Shave the Whales". Turns out it was a scam.

 

[Penumbra]

@Curious George I think there are a few things going on here. Consumerism being one of them - making people feel inadequate so they will buy products they do not need.
The fact that women are expected to remove body hair in contrast with men and body hair is a sign of maturity suggests there are probably some infantaliasing/paedophilic overtones to these practises.

Research and polls tend to show that men are indeed attracted to youth in women, and women in contrast are more likely to be attracted to status and wealth of men. Those are the two major superficial factors, and fairly gender-focused, compared to other typical aspects of attraction like intelligence, sense of humor, health, etc. So I do think hair removal is associated with a display of youth, more or less.

And yeah, it probably is related to clothing styles that show more skin; the bikini wax is even named after the context for which it applies: to remove hair that would grow outside of a bikini bottom covering it. So it's a very reasonable idea that removal of underarm hair is related to the wearing of sleeveless tops.

I do, however, think there's room for a woman's agency here, though. I don't think it's fully describable in terms of consumerism, men's desires, etc. Some women remove hair simply because they enjoy how they look and feel without hair, even if on some level, everyone's choices are influenced by society. Much like how a man might decide to shave his beard because he prefers how he looks without it, or doesn't like eating with a beard or having to trim it, a woman might decide to shave/laser/epilate/wax her legs, underarms, or privates because she simply prefers it.

In addition to that hair removal is often painful and masochistic which leads women to appear non-threatening to men.

I don't follow. Couldn't the opposite be argued, that it demonstrates an ability to withstand pain, and therefore be more threatening?

I'm not sure most women or men think of that when removing hair. It didn't cross my mind, and I'm not sure that it would cross a typical guy's mind especially if he's never removed hair painfully before.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Yeah I thought I started to remove my hair at age 14 because I wanted to...in actual fact I wanted to because that was the norm. Did I want to be singled out? No of course not. I was socialised into femininity and knew well enough the comments and stares I would get if I didn't conform. Let's talk about agency when it's actually meaningful. ...it isn't when young girls are shamed into removing body hair.
I still feel shame about my body hair. It's something I have to mentally overcome everyday because of how I was taught to view myself as a female.
When the question "would you date a girl who didn't shave under here and down there?" Isn't so relevant...then maybe talking about choice would serve some purpose.
Time to have some courage and really think about how femininity has and does effect us as women and stop falling back on "agency" for self comfort.