Let's talk about our body hair.

[Sand Dancer]

I think it's less about making women look exactly like a child and more about making them appear childlike or fragile in comparison to men.
I also think armless dresses has a role to play. Probably as they became more common place so did removing armpit hair.
Although armless t-shirts and shorts didn't result in men removing body hair so I definitely think body hair somehow became a symbol of power.

I think accentuating the differences between men and women are what is attractive to some people. Men are hairy, therefore, women should not be. Men are muscular, women should be thin. Men have pectoral muscles, women should have big gazongas.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think accentuating the differences between men and women are what is attractive to some people. Men are hairy, therefore, women should not be. Men are muscular, women should be thin. Men have pectoral muscles, women should have big gazongas.

"Some people" shouldn't transfer into expectation and shame. It's useful it to explore reasoning as to why certain differences are being accentuated and why those differences are deemed more attractive.

 

[Penumbra]

Yeah I thought I started to remove my hair at age 14 because I wanted to...in actual fact I wanted to because that was the norm. Did I want to be singled out? No of course not. I was socialised into femininity and knew well enough the comments and stares I would get if I didn't conform. Let's talk about agency when it's actually meaningful. ...it isn't when young girls are shamed into removing body hair.
I still feel shame about my body hair. It's something I have to mentally overcome everyday because of how I was taught to view myself as a female.
When the question "would you date a girl who didn't shave under here and down there?" Isn't so relevant...then maybe talking about choice would serve some purpose.
Time to have some courage and really think about how femininity has and does effect us as women and stop falling back on "agency" for self comfort.

I think agency is meaningful as a mode of thinking and taking action. If we don't take responsibility for our own choices, what do we have left? To me that seems a more relevant aspect of courage.

I also think there's room for both agency and thinking about how modern cultural forms of gender have affected people. Most choices are derived from culture, ranging from the idea of eating cereal and milk for breakfast, or the massive popularity of blue jeans, or removing hair from the body on a gender-differentiated basis. But out of the virtually infinite cultural trends that exist, we adopt some of them for ourselves, and not others. And out of the ones we adopt, we should critically examine ourselves to see whether we do it because we like it, or because we feel pressured to.

If choice is not a major variable, and we merely respond to society, then I would expect that the outcome is that we follow all typical norms rather than just some subset of them. Because if we follow some and not others, wouldn't that imply personal preference or choice?

I started removing hair in my early teens too, about the time it is common to do so. But that's around the same time girls often start wearing makeup, and I decided not to. Aside from occasionally dabbling in it as a novelty, it doesn't interest me. I still don't wear makeup from day to day. So clearly, it was more than just following trends. Some trends I agreed with and adopted, and others I didn't and went against the norm. The idea of removing body hair from some areas appealed to me, because it felt and looked appealing in my view, and still does, and I can use longer term methods to keep it simple. The idea of painting my face every day, then removing it, seemed more like a hassle that I didn't want to participate in, so I didn't. I enjoy being able to roll out of bed and pretty much go straight to work.

I would agree that it's terrible for young girls to be shamed into conforming to societal fads. Especially when it's very specific shaming, like when parents or friends or early dating partners pressure them into changing for society. But at the same time, I don't assume every single time that simply because someone's preferences happen to align with common behavior, that they do it because they are pressured to. They might simply like it, have noticed the trend, assessed it, and adopted it, while not adopting others.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think agency is meaningful as a mode of thinking and taking action. If we don't take responsibility for our own choices, what do we have left? To me that seems a more relevant aspect of courage.



I also think there's room for both agency and thinking about how modern cultural forms of gender have affected people. Most choices are derived from culture, ranging from the idea of eating cereal and milk for breakfast, or the massive popularity of blue jeans, or removing hair from the body on a gender-differentiated basis. But out of the virtually infinite cultural trends that exist, we adopt some of them for ourselves, and not others. And out of the ones we adopt, we should critically examine ourselves to see whether we do it because we like it, or because we feel pressured to.

If choice is not a major variable, and we merely respond to society, then I would expect that the outcome is that we follow all typical norms rather than just some subset of them. Because if we follow some and not others, wouldn't that imply personal preference or choice?

I started removing hair in my early teens too, about the time it is common to do so. But that's around the same time girls often start wearing makeup, and I decided not to. Aside from occasionally dabbling in it as a novelty, it doesn't interest me. I still don't wear makeup from day to day. So clearly, it was more than just following trends. Some trends I agreed with and adopted, and others I didn't and went against the norm. The idea of removing body hair from some areas appealed to me, because it felt and looked appealing in my view, and still does, and I can use longer term methods to keep it simple. The idea of painting my face every day, then removing it, seemed more like a hassle that I didn't want to participate in, so I didn't. I enjoy being able to roll out of bed and pretty much go straight to work.

I would agree that it's terrible for young girls to be shamed into conforming to societal fads. Especially when it's very specific shaming, like when parents or friends or early dating partners pressure them into changing for society. But at the same time, I don't assume every single time that simply because someone's preferences happen to align with common behavior, that they do it because they are pressured to. They might simply like it, have noticed the trend, assessed it, and adopted it, while not adopting others.

I don't personally see how it's helping the liberation of women and girls to say "not EVERY single time someone does something..." "when you get older you may learn to like it, some women do."
And I actually think it's more self serving and about avoiding personal discomfort with what is being criticised than actually helping women.
When girls are made to feel inadequate and psychologically dependant on something I think that's the only thing that is revelant to address to make change.
With some social norms there are more consequences than others. Someone is more likely to point out my body hair and ask invasive questions about what I do with my pubes for example, than my lack of makeup.
And even though I don't wear makeup often I still feel dependant on it occasionally in a way that most men don't.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Also I wasn't even talking about why individual women may feel like they like it or feel like they don't. I was addressing the question of why I think it's a social expectation.