Let's TALK about Paul...

[Betho_br]

The Apostle Paul, born Saul of Tarsus, was a Jew of Pharisaic lineage and a Roman citizen who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16), meaning prior to his dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus. Initially, Paul used his authority and Roman citizenship to persecute the followers of Christ, especially those who preached the resurrection of Jesus, a radical concept for both Jews and Gentiles. However, his conversion to Christianity provoked great hostility among his Jewish compatriots, who rejected the idea of Jesus as the resurrected Messiah, as well as among the Greeks, who considered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to be absurd.

As a Christian leader, Paul faced growing isolation, reporting that "all who are in the province of Asia have deserted me" (2 Timothy 1:15). Ephesus, the most prominent city in the region, was the center of this province, and it was to this area that the Book of Revelation was first addressed, directed "to the seven churches of Asia" (Revelation 1:4), which included Ephesus and other significant congregations. Asia Minor, in particular, played a crucial role not only in the development of early Christianity but also in the preservation of the biblical text.

The correspondence of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan in the early second century, originating from this same region, attests to the tension between Roman authorities and the growing Christian communities. In this historical and geographical context, the textual tradition known as the Byzantine or Majority Text also developed, characterized by a divergence of up to a thousand words in comparison to the more concise Alexandrian Text. This textual distinction reveals the variations in the transmission and preservation of manuscripts of the Christian Bible ("New Testament"), reflecting the different cultural and ecclesiastical influences in the formation of the biblical canon.

The moral of the story is that Christianity grew in a region characterized by the absence of a centralized leadership, which allowed for its dynamic adaptation and growth across various cultural and sociopolitical contexts. This lack of a unified authority structure in the early centuries contributed to a diversity of theological interpretations and practices, enabling the Christian movement to expand in multiple directions. At the same time, this decentralization encouraged doctrinal debates and the formation of local communities with distinct characteristics, reflecting the complexity of its historical development.

 

[Ebionite]

As a Christian leader, Paul faced growing isolation, reporting that "all who are in the province of Asia have deserted me" (2 Timothy 1:15). Ephesus, the most prominent city in the region, was the center of this province, and it was to this area that the Book of Revelation was first addressed, directed "to the seven churches of Asia" (Revelation 1:4), which included Ephesus and other significant congregations.

There is circumstantial evidence that Paul was amongst the false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus. The idea that Paul was a false apostle is supported by the differences between the account of Acts 26 (where Paul claimed to be appointed as a minister and witness) and the account in Acts 9 where Ananias told that him that he would regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. The idea that Paul was a liar is supported by his reference to his own lie (Romans 3:7) and by Paul's libel of Moses (2 Corinthians 3:13).

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 2:1-2

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Acts 19:1-9

 

[amatuerscholar]

The Apostle Paul, born Saul of Tarsus, was a Jew of Pharisaic lineage and a Roman citizen who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16), meaning prior to his dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus. Initially, Paul used his authority and Roman citizenship to persecute the followers of Christ, especially those who preached the resurrection of Jesus, a radical concept for both Jews and Gentiles. However, his conversion to Christianity provoked great hostility among his Jewish compatriots, who rejected the idea of Jesus as the resurrected Messiah, as well as among the Greeks, who considered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to be absurd.

Whether Paul was a Roman citizen is debated. He never mentions it, it's only mentioned in Acts. So even if he was a Roman citizen, according to him, he never used it to his advantage, and in fact allowed himself to be treated as a non-Roman.

The idea of Pharisaic lineage also makes little sense. He was a Pharisee, he was taught in that school of thought.

Paul also never converts, as there was nothing to convert to. Paul remained a Jew.

The resurrection was not radical. It was actually part of Jewish thought of that time, and was seen in the idea of a general resurrection. Paul specifically talks about this idea.

As a Christian leader, Paul faced growing isolation, reporting that "all who are in the province of Asia have deserted me" (2 Timothy 1:15). Ephesus, the most prominent city in the region, was the center of this province, and it was to this area that the Book of Revelation was first addressed, directed "to the seven churches of Asia" (Revelation 1:4), which included Ephesus and other significant congregations. Asia Minor, in particular, played a crucial role not only in the development of early Christianity but also in the preservation of the biblical text.

Paul did not face growing isolation. He was welcomed into many communities, and that's why we have letters to these communities. More so, 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul, but has long been seen as a forgery in his name.

The correspondence of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan in the early second century, originating from this same region, attests to the tension between Roman authorities and the growing Christian communities. In this historical and geographical context, the textual tradition known as the Byzantine or Majority Text also developed, characterized by a divergence of up to a thousand words in comparison to the more concise Alexandrian Text. This textual distinction reveals the variations in the transmission and preservation of manuscripts of the Christian Bible ("New Testament"), reflecting the different cultural and ecclesiastical influences in the formation of the biblical canon.

Pliny the Younger is writing in a different environment. He's writing at a time in which the Jewish Temple has been destroyed, and Christianity has split from Judaism. So there is no real comparison here.

The moral of the story is that Christianity grew in a region characterized by the absence of a centralized leadership, which allowed for its dynamic adaptation and growth across various cultural and sociopolitical contexts. This lack of a unified authority structure in the early centuries contributed to a diversity of theological interpretations and practices, enabling the Christian movement to expand in multiple directions. At the same time, this decentralization encouraged doctrinal debates and the formation of local communities with distinct characteristics, reflecting the complexity of its historical development.

There was centralized leadership with the early movement that Paul was part of. That centralization was in Jerusalem, with James, the brother of Jesus, and the disciples, John and Peter. Paul tells us this very clearly, and also tells us that he went to James to get his message approved.

 

[jimb]

The Apostle Paul, born Saul of Tarsus, was a Jew of Pharisaic lineage and a Roman citizen who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16), meaning prior to his dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus. Initially, Paul used his authority and Roman citizenship to persecute the followers of Christ, especially those who preached the resurrection of Jesus, a radical concept for both Jews and Gentiles. However, his conversion to Christianity provoked great hostility among his Jewish compatriots, who rejected the idea of Jesus as the resurrected Messiah, as well as among the Greeks, who considered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to be absurd.

As a Christian leader, Paul faced growing isolation, reporting that "all who are in the province of Asia have deserted me" (2 Timothy 1:15). Ephesus, the most prominent city in the region, was the center of this province, and it was to this area that the Book of Revelation was first addressed, directed "to the seven churches of Asia" (Revelation 1:4), which included Ephesus and other significant congregations. Asia Minor, in particular, played a crucial role not only in the development of early Christianity but also in the preservation of the biblical text.

The correspondence of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan in the early second century, originating from this same region, attests to the tension between Roman authorities and the growing Christian communities. In this historical and geographical context, the textual tradition known as the Byzantine or Majority Text also developed, characterized by a divergence of up to a thousand words in comparison to the more concise Alexandrian Text. This textual distinction reveals the variations in the transmission and preservation of manuscripts of the Christian Bible ("New Testament"), reflecting the different cultural and ecclesiastical influences in the formation of the biblical canon.

The moral of the story is that Christianity grew in a region characterized by the absence of a centralized leadership, which allowed for its dynamic adaptation and growth across various cultural and sociopolitical contexts. This lack of a unified authority structure in the early centuries contributed to a diversity of theological interpretations and practices, enabling the Christian movement to expand in multiple directions. At the same time, this decentralization encouraged doctrinal debates and the formation of local communities with distinct characteristics, reflecting the complexity of its historical development.

The ancient Roman empire is the definition of a centralized leadership and/or unified authority structure.. Everything, including the society of the Palestinian, Asia Minor, and Mediterranean region was under the direct control of Rome.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The Apostle Paul, born Saul of Tarsus, was a Jew of Pharisaic lineage and a Roman citizen who knew Jesus "according to the flesh" (2 Corinthians 5:16), meaning prior to his dramatic conversion on the road to Damascus. Initially, Paul used his authority and Roman citizenship to persecute the followers of Christ, especially those who preached the resurrection of Jesus, a radical concept for both Jews and Gentiles. However, his conversion to Christianity provoked great hostility among his Jewish compatriots, who rejected the idea of Jesus as the resurrected Messiah, as well as among the Greeks, who considered the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to be absurd.

As a Christian leader, Paul faced growing isolation, reporting that "all who are in the province of Asia have deserted me" (2 Timothy 1:15). Ephesus, the most prominent city in the region, was the center of this province, and it was to this area that the Book of Revelation was first addressed, directed "to the seven churches of Asia" (Revelation 1:4), which included Ephesus and other significant congregations. Asia Minor, in particular, played a crucial role not only in the development of early Christianity but also in the preservation of the biblical text.

The correspondence of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan in the early second century, originating from this same region, attests to the tension between Roman authorities and the growing Christian communities. In this historical and geographical context, the textual tradition known as the Byzantine or Majority Text also developed, characterized by a divergence of up to a thousand words in comparison to the more concise Alexandrian Text. This textual distinction reveals the variations in the transmission and preservation of manuscripts of the Christian Bible ("New Testament"), reflecting the different cultural and ecclesiastical influences in the formation of the biblical canon.

The moral of the story is that Christianity grew in a region characterized by the absence of a centralized leadership, which allowed for its dynamic adaptation and growth across various cultural and sociopolitical contexts. This lack of a unified authority structure in the early centuries contributed to a diversity of theological interpretations and practices, enabling the Christian movement to expand in multiple directions. At the same time, this decentralization encouraged doctrinal debates and the formation of local communities with distinct characteristics, reflecting the complexity of its historical development.

Actually Paul is just a fake Apostle he's not real neither in the story or real life.

If I was still a Christian I would have definitely scratched Paul the fake Apostle completely out of the Bible because it instructs Christians to not believe anyone that sees or says Christ is here or there.

 

[jimb]

Actually Paul is just a fake Apostle he's not real neither in the story or real life.

If I was still a Christian I would have definitely scratched Paul the fake Apostle completely out of the Bible because it instructs Christians to not believe anyone that sees or says Christ is here or there.

Paul was most definitely not a fake apostle. On the contrary, he was probably the greatest apostle, having written most of the New Testament and having spread the gospel and formed churches in the Mediterranean region.

If you have evidence of your claim that Paul was a fake apostle, then produce it.

Finally, your claim about what he instructed Christians to believe about seeing Christ is taken from the gospels.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Paul was most definitely not a fake apostle. On the contrary, he was probably the greatest apostle, having written most of the New Testament and having spread the gospel and formed churches in the Mediterranean region.

If you have evidence of your claim that Paul was a fake apostle, then produce it.

Finally, your claim about what he instructed Christians to believe about seeing Christ is taken from the gospels.

It's not my claim. It's right there in the Book of Matthew that shows without a doubt that Paul is not one to to be believed he met Christ.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-24-23/

He is without question a fake apostle as the end times were for that generation , which of course Christ's predictions later turned out wrong, and the end times did not happen in that generation.

 

[Berserk]

Paul lists Jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 Corinthians 15:38. His list derives from nix 2 early visits to the Jerusalem apostles, who approved his Gospel and endorsed his Gentile mission (Galatians 1:18=19; 2:1-10): Paul is aware from his 2 visits to Jerusalem that some of the 500 witnesses to a mass resurrection appearance of Jesus are still alive to confirm their awesome testimony. Paul's astounding missionary success makes him the most spiritually effective Christian who ever lived!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Paul lists Jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 Corinthians 15:38. His list derives from nix 2 early visits to the Jerusalem apostles, who approved his Gospel and endorsed his Gentile mission (Galatians 1:18=19; 2:1-10): Paul is aware from his 2 visits to Jerusalem that some of the 500 witnesses to a mass resurrection appearance of Jesus are still alive to confirm their awesome testimony. Paul's astounding missionary success makes him the most spiritually effective Christian who ever lived!

At least that's how the Catholics wrote it.

 

[Berserk]

At least that's how the Catholics wrote it.

Text Criticism is the science of recnstructing the original text of Scripture. No modern scholars dispute that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians and Galatians, the 2 texts in question. In my grad studies I studied under Bruce Metzger, the leading Text Critic at the time.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Text Criticism is the science of recnstructing the original text of Scripture. No modern scholars dispute that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians and Galatians, the 2 texts in question. In my grad studies I studied under Bruce Metzger, the leading Text Critic at the time.

Theological seminary scholars perhaps , but not scholars degreed in the scientific field of archeology.

 

[Berserk]

Theological seminary scholars perhaps , but not scholars degreed in the scientific field of archeology.

Duh, I studied under experts in biblical archaeology in my Harvard doctoral program. They would all agree with my statement.
In any case, archaeology is irrelevant to the study of Text Criticism, the grouping of ancient biblical manuscripts into families by date, text type, and region, to explain when, where, and why textual variants occasionally creep into the text. You are obviously blissfully ignorant of this discipline and are pontificating from ignorance.

 

[Betho_br]

The Book of Revelation mentions the figure of a false prophet, being a text that addresses the persecution of the saints, supposedly written before the destruction of Jerusalem. In light of the current discussion on this forum, why not consider the possibility that the false prophet mentioned in Revelation could, in fact, be Pauline theology, which favored the Roman Empire to the detriment of Jesus's apostles of the circumcision? I emphasize, however, that I do not consider either group as fully representative of Jesus's theology.

 

[jimb]

Duh, I studied under experts in biblical archaeology in my Harvard doctoral program. They would all agree with my statement.
In any case, archaeology is irrelevant to the study of Text Criticism, the grouping of ancient biblical manuscripts into families by date, text type, and region, to explain when, where, and why textual variants occasionally creep into the text. You are obviously blissfully ignorant of this discipline and are pontificating from ignorance.

I don't recall seeing any post from you before, but I AM VERY. VERY HAPPY that you are here. There is a lot of ignorant nonsense posted by people whose goal, it seems, is to write whatever uninformed, hostile garbage they can come up with.

Please continue to participate! The more informed, rational posts there are, the better!

 

[Betho_br]

Whether Paul was a Roman citizen is debated. He never mentions it, it's only mentioned in Acts. So even if he was a Roman citizen, according to him, he never used it to his advantage, and in fact allowed himself to be treated as a non-Roman.

The idea of Pharisaic lineage also makes little sense. He was a Pharisee, he was taught in that school of thought.

Paul also never converts, as there was nothing to convert to. Paul remained a Jew.

The resurrection was not radical. It was actually part of Jewish thought of that time, and was seen in the idea of a general resurrection. Paul specifically talks about this idea.




Paul did not face growing isolation. He was welcomed into many communities, and that's why we have letters to these communities. More so, 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul, but has long been seen as a forgery in his name.


Pliny the Younger is writing in a different environment. He's writing at a time in which the Jewish Temple has been destroyed, and Christianity has split from Judaism. So there is no real comparison here.

There was centralized leadership with the early movement that Paul was part of. That centralization was in Jerusalem, with James, the brother of Jesus, and the disciples, John and Peter. Paul tells us this very clearly, and also tells us that he went to James to get his message approved.

Substantiate your arguments.

 

[Sumadji]

Paul lists Jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 Corinthians 15:38. His list derives from nix 2 early visits to the Jerusalem apostles, who approved his Gospel and endorsed his Gentile mission (Galatians 1:18=19; 2:1-10): Paul is aware from his 2 visits to Jerusalem that some of the 500 witnesses to a mass resurrection appearance of Jesus are still alive to confirm their awesome testimony. Paul's astounding missionary success makes him the most spiritually effective Christian who ever lived!

Not to mention that Paul was the first Christian writer, before the Gospels. Galatians dated 48AD and 1Thessolonians 52AD within the lifetime of most of those who had witnessed Jesus

 

[Dimi95]

Duh, I studied under experts in biblical archaeology in my Harvard doctoral program. They would all agree with my statement.
In any case, archaeology is irrelevant to the study of Text Criticism, the grouping of ancient biblical manuscripts into families by date, text type, and region, to explain when, where, and why textual variants occasionally creep into the text. You are obviously blissfully ignorant of this discipline and are pontificating from ignorance.

Just to correct you if you don't mind, archeology is not irrelevant as you say it is.
It has shown a lot about names and areas.

But the rest is as you have described it

 

[Betho_br]

Church of circumcised Jews:

Acts 21:20-21 kJV

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

The reasons why they did not prosper are written in the Christian Bible itself.

1) The insistence on blaming the Jewish leaders for the death of the righteous man (Jesus), when in fact it was Jesus who meticulously planned his death.

2) Not having supported the Jews against the Romans in the siege of Jerusalem +- 70 AD, fulfilling Jesus' instructions to flee to the hills:

Luke 21:20-21 KJV

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

3) Illiterate leadership.

4) The false apostle Paul, who set fire to Judea against the already weak authorities of Jesus' apostles.

 

[Dimi95]

Church of circumcised Jews:

Acts 21:20-21 kJV

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

You just used some version of the Bible and explained how this verse fits into your interpretation.
I am sorry , but it does not go that way.
You can interpret Scriptire by reading passages and not by reading 1 or two verses.

These are not just spiritual teachings , these writings are also considered as events that happend.

So it is very possible that this is a misconception.

So in this case the verses before and after are also of relevance.
And not every time as we see that sometimes conclusion in Textual Criticism can be made by reading more Passages.

The reasons why they did not prosper are written in the Christian Bible itself.

The Christian Bible is a later defined manuscript.Like three centuries later.
The reasons can not be only in the Bible.
There are also other sources who say a thing or two about these events.

1) The insistence on blaming the Jewish leaders for the death of the righteous man (Jesus), when in fact it was Jesus who meticulously planned his death.

What a fool this Jesus was..

He spoke about the kingdom of God and all the goods in it and he was crucified for that.
It doesn't matter who did it , it matters that its done.

2) Not having supported the Jews against the Romans in the siege of Jerusalem +- 70 AD, fulfilling Jesus' instructions to flee to the hills:

You should read something about Jewish - Roman wars before you say things like this , which have no sense.

Luke 21:20-21 KJV

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This is what i call 'playing ping-pong with verses and taking interpretation based on your belief.

War is neccessary only if it is ressistence to injustice.Neccessary does not mean 'good'.

Jesus speaks a lot more in this parable then just this.

In Luke 21 , we see that Jesus says this also:
"How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people."

So i don't think that he gave a bad advice.

Masada: A heroic last stand against Rome

Two thousand years ago, 967 Jewish men, women, and children reportedly chose to take their own lives rather than suffer enslavement or death at the hands of the Roman army.

press.princeton.edu

"Now, however, they were besieged by an overwhelming Roman force, and it was clear the fortress would fall. At this critical moment, the rebel leader Eleazar Ben-Yair gathered the men together and convinced them to commit mass suicide. So persuaded, each man killed his own wife and children."

3) Illiterate leadership.

I don't know a historian that says these things.

4) The false apostle Paul, who set fire to Judea against the already weak authorities of Jesus' apostles.

Yes , but there are other sources

Tacitus doesn't offer much sympathy for the Christians, accusing them of 'abominations' and characterizing their religion as 'a most mischievous superstition' and an 'evil,' and deriding Rome as the place where similar 'things hideous and shameful' are popularized. Tacitus does soften a bit near then end of his account, stating that the Christians were tortured and killed to satisfy Nero's cruelty, rather than for the benefit of the public good. Suetonius also mentions the persecution of Christians under Nero, and there is no good reason to assume that the passage in Tacitus is an interpolation.

Tacitus was around seven years old when the fire broke out, and he would have had ample access to firsthand accounts of the incident and its aftermath. As a Roman governor, he had access to both the testimonies of the common folk, as well as the testimonies of high-ranking Roman officials who were in a position to verify the story.

Many Romans at that time taught that Tacitus wanted to clear some areas for his building plans.
It is rather clear that no Christians , and that also means - neither Paul, had anything to do with the fire.

From where do you get your conclusions?

 

[Betho_br]

I don't know a historian that says these things.

"When they saw the boldness of Peter and John, knowing that they were uneducated and uneducated men, they were astonished; and they recognized that they had been with Jesus" is an excerpt from the Bible, Acts 4:13

Paul himself was also deficient in grammar.