Let's talk about sexual harassment

[Sunstone]

So NY Governor Cuomo is the latest to undergo accusations of sexual harassment, which may well end his political career -- maybe not this term, but it might scotch any run for another one. (Of course, there are other issues that could scotch that, too, like long-term-care homes and COVID-19.)

But you know, I find it hard to know what should or should not be considered sexual harassment. Some examples:

• I'm at a party, and there's this gorgeous chick who accepts to dance with me, and at the end I reach out to her waist, and pull her a little closer to me...but that's all
• I'm at a party, and there's a girl sitting on the couch beside me, and I lean over and kiss her on the cheek
• I'm in the office, and there's just me and my secretary -- and I ask her if she'd like to go for a drink later
• I'm a gay guy, and I tell somebody I've met in a bar that I think he's gorgeous, and I'd like to .... um, you know, to his what's-it
• I'm a Congressman in a public bathroom, and I signal under the wall of my cubical to the guy in the next one that I'd be interested in, um, gosh, why is this so hard to say within forum rules?

Human relationships are really complex. Unless you've got a Yenta, or a Pater Familias, or whomever, arranging who you are going to meet, marry and live with, you're left with trying to find ways to hook up on your own. That can be hard -- you have to find ways to express your interest, even your sexual interest, without stepping over the line that makes that expression of interest "harassment."

Think of your own examples -- then discuss.

It strikes me that you find it hard to get a good take on sexual harassment from a male point of view. Would possibly see your challenge here as one of figuring out the right perspective in which to examine the evidence? If not, what do you deeply feel about the core and essential importance of getting a take on Ford trucks from a salesperson on the Toyota car lot? In terms of reliability, I mean.

If I were trying to figure out a sexual harassment case, I would of course take into account the testimony of the man involved. But I would weigh both it and the woman's testimony in accordance with a fair-minded and disciplined effort to determine somehow the woman's authority as an expert on the matter. Then I would apply my understanding of her authority to whatever method of reasoning I was using in some cautious and conservative way to error on the side of the accused, if any error is made at all.

I think I would have been skilled enough to have done that by sometime the 1980s. But even back in the 70s, I had an idea of the value of authority in the concept that scientists and mechanics both know more about anything they've gotten their hands on.

Getting your hands on something to learn something about it at the very least teaches you the important of perspective in determining authoring.

I wonder why so many people have their lives ruined in a nation that has so many resources as America -- and the person who ruined their lives goes free. This in an age of DNA testing. What are we thinking of ourselves when we so often detour from thinking about that.

The internet is making me sick.

 

[Colt]

Sexual harassment is any act that you suddenly reinterpret in hindsight as offensive as leverage in the present.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No. Because it is generally men that are liable to be sexually aggressive. That is just a fact. So it is for the man to show he is not being aggressive in a situation like this.

Then how would you manage in a gay situation, when it's two men? (And no, we don't generally divide ourselves up into masculine and feminine.)

 

[metis]

Think of your own examples -- then discuss.

I have to be careful since I've been married to a hugging, cheek-kissing Sicilian for 54 years [next week], and it very much rubbed off on me over the years. Even though we still do this within our family and close friends, I have to be more reserved with others, and I have been.

 

[exchemist]

Then how would you manage in a gay situation, when it's two men? (And no, we don't generally divide ourselves up into masculine and feminine.)

Well I'm not an expert on gay sexual etiquette, but I still think the example you give in the OP is crude and might give offence. One just doesn't tap someone on the shoulder and say one would like to screw them. At least, not in the circles in which I have moved, during my life.

 

[exchemist]

Well, that will lead to an infinite regress, if we play it safe.

Ciao

- viole

Not at all. One can give signals but they need to be subtle enough not to upset the other party if he or she is not interested, that's all.

 

[Earthtank]

I'm at a party, and there's this gorgeous chick who accepts to dance with me, and at the end I reach out to her waist, and pull her a little closer to me...but that's all

No, nothing wrong with it.

I'm at a party, and there's a girl sitting on the couch beside me, and I lean over and kiss her on the cheek

If you did not know her at all and just went for the kiss then, yeah that aint right.

I'm in the office, and there's just me and my secretary -- and I ask her if she'd like to go for a drink later

Depends on the history between you 2 but in general I would say there is nothing wrong with that

I'm a gay guy, and I tell somebody I've met in a bar that I think he's gorgeous, and I'd like to .... um, you know, to his what's-it

Nope, nothing wrong there. That guy can say no and you can move on

I'm a Congressman in a public bathroom, and I signal under the wall of my cubical to the guy in the next one that I'd be interested in, um, gosh, why is this so hard to say within forum rules?

Not sure if sexual harassments or not but definitely wrong place and wrong time lol

 

[exchemist]

I have to be careful since I've been married to a hugging, cheek-kissing Sicilian for 54 years [next week], and it very much rubbed off on me over the years. Even though we still do this within our family and close friends, I have to be more reserved with others, and I have been.

I can imagine that must be especially so in the USA. I got into a certain amount of embarrassment in Houston, kissing ladies in social greeting as we do in Europe. They seem to do that horrible arse-out hug thing.

 

[exchemist]

No, nothing wrong with it.



If you did not know her at all and just went for the kiss then, yeah that aint right.



Depends on the history between you 2 but in general I would say there is nothing wrong with that



Nope, nothing wrong there. That guy can say no and you can move on



Not sure if sexual harassments or not but definitely wrong place and wrong time lol

In my view, the secretary thing is not on. You can get into a lot of trouble that way, due to the imbalance of power in the relationship, and nowadays it could even get you sacked from some places. You immediately put the secretary in an awkward position, just by asking.

I actually did once go out with someone who was a secretary to the group I worked in, but only after I changed jobs (and location) so there was no professional relationship between us any more and no likelihood of office gossip.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Good riddance to Chairman Cuomo. 3 women stepped forward and it's a good thing to see people not afraid to say when someone unwelcome invades their personal space uninvited.

 

[metis]

They seem to do that horrible arse-out hug thing.

So true!

BTW, I remember the first wedding reception that I went to on my wife's side of the family, and I kissed one of her cousins on the lips, and did I hear it from my wife that lips are a no-no! Hey, I didn't know any better.

 

[Vinayaka]

So NY Governor Cuomo is the latest to undergo accusations of sexual harassment, which may well end his political career -- maybe not this term, but it might scotch any run for another one. (Of course, there are other issues that could scotch that, too, like long-term-care homes and COVID-19.)

But you know, I find it hard to know what should or should not be considered sexual harassment. Some examples:

• I'm at a party, and there's this gorgeous chick who accepts to dance with me, and at the end I reach out to her waist, and pull her a little closer to me...but that's all
• I'm at a party, and there's a girl sitting on the couch beside me, and I lean over and kiss her on the cheek
• I'm in the office, and there's just me and my secretary -- and I ask her if she'd like to go for a drink later
• I'm a gay guy, and I tell somebody I've met in a bar that I think he's gorgeous, and I'd like to .... um, you know, to his what's-it
• I'm a Congressman in a public bathroom, and I signal under the wall of my cubical to the guy in the next one that I'd be interested in, um, gosh, why is this so hard to say within forum rules?

Human relationships are really complex. Unless you've got a Yenta, or a Pater Familias, or whomever, arranging who you are going to meet, marry and live with, you're left with trying to find ways to hook up on your own. That can be hard -- you have to find ways to express your interest, even your sexual interest, without stepping over the line that makes that expression of interest "harassment."

Think of your own examples -- then discuss.

I have no examples, as I can honestly say I worked with people, not with genders. I may have seen others doing some 'iffy' things but was naive to most of it. I found out one day that two staff members were having an affair, and I took 4 guesses, before my confidante got impatient with my naivete and blurted it out. Personally, I don't think it should ever come up in any workplace.

 

[Revoltingest]

Then how would you manage in a gay situation, when it's two men? (And no, we don't generally divide ourselves up into masculine and feminine.)

I sympathize.
Changing standards do seem to make it appear that way.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

One of my reasons for starting this thread is that sexuality is very much "wired in" in our human noggins. We are driven to it as strongly as to anything else important to our survival. And this has caused, I think, difficulty throughout human history.

You can picture for yourself, I'm sure, some of the old cartoons of cave-men bonking cave-women on the head with clubs, and dragging them home by the hair -- presumably for the purpose of attempting to sire offspring upon them. Humans have, as a result, cultivated all sorts of ways of trying to cope with that powerful drive. We can see a lot of it in the Bible, and I presume other sacred texts, as well, though I'm not so familiar with all of them.

Some cultures have gone so far as for families to determine who their children will marry, and thus submit their bodies to -- which in my view is about as sexually harassing as can be. I certainly would not want to meet somebody chosen for me, and have to submit to whatever their pleasure was.

And yet, that drive impels us to seek sexual partners -- and that takes trying to find ways to initiate discovery of whether there's any interest. Look at the animal kingdom: consider things like male moose peeing in a hole to attract several females; or the peacock flaring that wondrous tail at every peahen that wanders by -- not to mention pigeon cocks puffing and cooing endless at females who studiously try to ignore them.

And that last example makes me wonder: why is it that today (unlike the years when I was growing up) any attempt to express (and seek) sexual interest in another person can be seen as harassment, rather than a natural event in human life -- to be responded to or ignored, as we please.

 

[Kooky]

It strikes me that you find it hard to get a good take on sexual harassment from a male point of view. Would possibly see your challenge here as one of figuring out the right perspective in which to examine the evidence? If not, what do you deeply feel about the core and essential importance of getting a take on Ford trucks from a salesperson on the Toyota car lot? In terms of reliability, I mean.

If I were trying to figure out a sexual harassment case, I would of course take into account the testimony of the man involved. But I would weigh both it and the woman's testimony in accordance with a fair-minded and disciplined effort to determine somehow the woman's authority as an expert on the matter. Then I would apply my understanding of her authority to whatever method of reasoning I was using in some cautious and conservative way to error on the side of the accused, if any error is made at all.

I think I would have been skilled enough to have done that by sometime the 1980s. But even back in the 70s, I had an idea of the value of authority in the concept that scientists and mechanics both know more about anything they've gotten their hands on.

Getting your hands on something to learn something about it at the very least teaches you the important of perspective in determining authoring.

I wonder why so many people have their lives ruined in a nation that has so many resources as America -- and the person who ruined their lives goes free. This in an age of DNA testing. What are we thinking of ourselves when we so often detour from thinking about that.

The internet is making me sick.

In the media - both on the internet, in fora, social media etc. as well as in more traditional, mainstream media - I can find plenty of takes on sexual harassment from the male point of view, but the core issue - and one men should take a long hard look to reflect on - seems to be that whenever men talk about sexual harassment in public, they talk about it from the perspective of a man being an alleged predator, and a woman the alleged victim.

I believe that this is probably one of the deepest seated problems our patriachial society seems to have with the issue - a profound inability to accept situations that differ from the accepted gender roles our society confers on men and women respectively (and which, of course, leaves countless of alternate conceptions of gender out in the rain. in addition to all the other drawbacks of such a narrow worldview).

This profound inability is so internalized that most men tend to empathize more with the predator than with the victim of sexual harassment, more with the one in power than with the one who has their power and liberty deprived from them in such a situation.

I admit that I have a hard time discussing this issue with a fair mind and a calm demeanour, as I find the very notion of people immediately taking the side of predators in an issue where they, themselves, could have been a victim and where they, themselves, should work hard to make the world better for all victims no matter their gender, thoroughly infuriating and even a little bit disgusting.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then how would you manage in a gay situation, when it's two men? (And no, we don't generally divide ourselves up into masculine and feminine.)

Since when? Everyone knows about the divide between the queeny, effeminate gays and the more butch ones. It's obvious and there's some conflict there, too, as the "straight acting gays" look down on the effeminate gays.

 

[Sunstone]

The Na people of Southern China are a unique non-Han ethnic group that has a distinct culture going back somewhere between 2,500 and perhaps 5,000 years.

There is very little sexual abuse of women and girls.

The Na have about 20,000 culturally pure members living in the center of a larger group of Na who are in contact with outsiders.

They have no world for "rape". They have no gossip about rape that embedded scientists have observed.

They live closer to our ancestors ways than you do.

I would consider that before I made any firm decisions about how rape cannot be eliminated as a crime. Stable big city neighborhoods are small town social groups.




If it were men being raped. America would have just gotten a new moon program.

We're a country that can't even unite to flush it's toilet these days.

By the way, I'm your enemy. No compromising with, you see. I want more of Tucker's socialism and not enough of his capitalism. Better run off now. You have other posters sweeter to you than me.

They are the sweet civil ones. But they are not the bitter and sour, but honest ones.

You can handle the truth because you have seen the movie, I bet.


We can't flush our toilet because both sides can't flush their minds. Want to see the best life has to offer you and your family? International travel would be a good idea. Wouldn't start here, these days.

Unless I just wanted to see Confederate Pride spread wide and far across a whole nation, and for everything past in America these days. Yeah, then you would be seeing the best preserved pride in the world.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Since when? Everyone knows about the divide between the queeny, effeminate gays and the more butch ones. It's obvious and there's some conflict there, too, as the "straight acting gays" look down on the effeminate gays.

That's a pretty big overgeneralization, in my view. There's a lot less of that than you may suppose. Most gay men live life pretty much on the quiet. My partner of nearly 30 years and I never, ever go out in Toronto's gay community -- nor do most others. Sure, there's a smallish number who do, and who play up roles, but even most of them grow out of it, leaving only a few "old queens," who are generally not much admired.

But on the subject of sexual harassment, my lover always used to call me a "babe magnet," (which I was secretly proud of). There have been women who have approached me in bars and made quite hard plays for a tumble. I never felt "abused," and actually found it a bit flattering -- and of course I always said, "no, thank you."

 

[Revoltingest]

But on the subject of sexual harassment, my lover always used to call me a "babe magnet," (which I was secretly proud of). There have been women who have approached me in bars and made quite hard plays for a tumble. I never felt "abused," and actually found it a bit flattering -- and of course I always said, "no, thank you."

Bars being "meet markets", it's appropriate for such solicitations.
Different it would be if you were at work, & she asked to prefamulate
your amulite with her panendermic tramsell.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's a pretty big overgeneralization, in my view. There's a lot less of that than you may suppose. Most gay men live life pretty much on the quiet. My partner of nearly 30 years and I never, ever go out in Toronto's gay community -- nor do most others. Sure, there's a smallish number who do, and who play up roles, but even most of them grow out of it, leaving only a few "old queens," who are generally not much admired.

But on the subject of sexual harassment, my lover always used to call me a "babe magnet," (which I was secretly proud of). There have been women who have approached me in bars and made quite hard plays for a tumble. I never felt "abused," and actually found it a bit flattering -- and of course I always said, "no, thank you."

I've been around gay men all my life. It's just something I've observed.

As for the conflation of flirting with sexual harassment that we see these days (mind you, it's certainly inappropriate at times like at work), it's mostly coming a sort of neo-puritanism. This is a new anti-sexual era, it seems.