Let's talk miracles...

[jarofthoughts]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

 

[Bob Dixon]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

1. Yes.

2. Miracles are things which would not have happened naturally, just so. Like, for example, the eruption of a volcano was always GOING TO HAPPEN. The movement of the earth's magma and whatever (please, I'm not a scientist) would guarantee it. But if the volcano was never going to erupt and a prophet of God MADE IT ERUPT, then that's a miracle.

3. Well, the fact that it never would've happened naturally, without the help of God.

We have to remember, however, that miracles generally don't occur. Even in the Bible, most of the miracle stories should not be taken so literally; a literal interpretation misses the true meaning and symbolism behind the stories because it only scratches the surface.
What I'm saying is, I think that there could be such a thing as a miracle, yes... but the fact that your cousin Bubba survived that snakebite isn't one.

 

[swamplizard]

Hi Jar of Thoughts,

The connotations that go with word "miracle" often obscure their natural occurance. To me, all that is, is natural. God is.

If it happens or is even possible to happen, it is within the realm of the natural being; the word "supernatural" also carries a connotation that implies beyond possiblility. The instructions for existence allow for events, these events are within the eternal range of being and as such occur with or without our understanding.

boggy nickles,
swampy

 

[jarofthoughts]

1. Yes.

2. Miracles are things which would not have happened naturally, just so. Like, for example, the eruption of a volcano was always GOING TO HAPPEN. The movement of the earth's magma and whatever (please, I'm not a scientist) would guarantee it. But if the volcano was never going to erupt and a prophet of God MADE IT ERUPT, then that's a miracle.

3. Well, the fact that it never would've happened naturally, without the help of God.

We have to remember, however, that miracles generally don't occur. Even in the Bible, most of the miracle stories should not be taken so literally; a literal interpretation misses the true meaning and symbolism behind the stories because it only scratches the surface.
What I'm saying is, I think that there could be such a thing as a miracle, yes... but the fact that your cousin Bubba survived that snakebite isn't one.

See, that's the thing I was going for here.
People sometimes (either actually or just semantically) call things a miracle, usually when someone survives something which they had a low probability of surviving.
But the problem is that in general people are ill equipped to understand statistical chance, and if they did they would know that improbable things happen all the time.
I mean, apparently the statistical chance of being shot in the head are around 5%, which would make it much more likely than winning the lottery, and yet people tend to view the first instance as a miracle and not the second one.
Just seems a bit backwards, so my follow-up question to you would be:
Given our limited knowledge about the chances of things happening (say, a volcano erupting) by chance, how can one tell if it is really a miracle or not?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Hi Jar of Thoughts,

The connotations that go with word "miracle" often obscure their natural occurance. To me, all that is, is natural. God is.

If it happens or is even possible to happen, it is within the realm of the natural being; the word "supernatural" also carries a connotation that implies beyond possiblility. The instructions for existence allow for events, these events are within the eternal range of being and as such occur with or without our understanding.

boggy nickles,
swampy

So, would you say that a miracle is something that defies natural law?
Like the sun standing still (as described in the bible) for instance?

 

[swamplizard]

So, would you say that a miracle is something that defies natural law?
Like the sun standing still (as described in the bible) for instance?

Hey again Jar,

We cannot fully define "natural law" with our minds, nor comprehend its possibilities within eternity. "A miracle" implies something that is "impossible," however any occurance must be possible for such an event to come to pass. Our minds impede the awareness of these and other events.

best regards,
swampy

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

See below.

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

Miracles in my opinion are rare, but natural, fortunate events.

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

See above.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

For any one believing in a god, miracles are a natural possibly of such a beings powers.

Do I believe they happen...? very very rarely.
Are they confused with natural phenomenon...? quite often
Something should only be called a miracle after all other possibilities have been discounted, and then only on a provisional basis.

A non theistic miracle, is called a long shot coming home.

 

[Riverwolf]

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

If we're defining miracle by it's real meaning, i.e., a suspension of the laws of nature by a supernatural entity for whatever reason, then, while I really want to believe in them, I don't.

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

I defined them above. So experiences that bring great elation and joy are only "miracles" metaphorically, but not literally.

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

Generally all an event has to do is amaze and bring elation to people, and it will be called a miracle.

 

[SMSummer]

yes
miracles are things that happen against all odds. they are not just rare events
the event must have happened, again, against all odds

 

[Storm]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

Sorta.

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

"Miracles happen within the rules." (Joan Of Arcadia) That said, I believe said rules are wider and weirder than humans have begun to imagine.

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

Profundity of effect.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Given our limited knowledge about the chances of things happening (say, a volcano erupting) by chance, how can one tell if it is really a miracle or not?

Oh, you'd know.
Like, if the volcano was active and all, seeing it erupt probably wouldn't surprise you THAT much.
But if it had been dormant for hundreds of thousands of years and, suddenly, it started to erupt and, after the eruption, there was a beautiful field in its place and everyone was fed and happy... that's a true miracle!

So. People eating bread... that's no miracle. A guy feeding a crowd of thousands with two pieces of bread and three fish... that's a real miracle!

You'd know, don't worry. Most "miracle" stories are not true.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I agree with those who said that miracles, or, events that take place outside the laws of nature, do not happen. With this said, I do believe that what's commonly termed 'miracles' happen, but they are not supernatural in origin, but are as yet not understood as to how or why they happen. I do not believe anything happens outside of natural law, just that there are things that happen that we simply don't have explanations for, yet.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Seems that most agree that miracles are simply rare advantageous events, and that they have natural causes, even if we do not fully understand those causes.

Still, people use this term in everyday life (the media is especially fond of it), but it appears to me that we use it somewhat inconsistently. For instance, a person making a full recovery from cancer is a miracle but someone winning millions of dollars in the lottery is not, even if the statistical chance of each might be equal.

Still, this is just semantics I guess.

The Online Oxford Dictionary, while supporting this view, gives this as their main definition of a miracle:
"an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

So if we're speaking in religious terms, a miracle would in effect have to be a suspension or counteract of natural law in order produce some effect.
I mentioned earlier the example of the Sun standing still (which, as we now know, would in fact have to mean that the Earth was standing still), something that would have to be nothing less than a miracle according to our current understanding of the universe.

Are there such miracles or are they made up/highly exaggerated stories retold over the generations?

 

[jarofthoughts]

You'd know, don't worry. Most "miracle" stories are not true.

As a Christian, how do you view the stories describing miracles in the Bible?

 

[Quintessence]

I have seen a distinction made between "strong" and "weak" miracles that I think would be useful to this discussion.

A "strong" miracle violates the laws of nature and is by definition, supernatural. Good examples of strong miracles can be found littered in mythological texts of the worlds religions if they are interpreted literally.

A "weak" miracle is a natural event that has a low probability of occurring or an event that is awe-inspiring or magical as deemed by the beholder. Examples would include winning the lottery or the birth of a child.

I do not believe in "strong" miracles because, just as Swamplizard stated, I see everything as nature. The supernatural does not exist, and violations of natural laws can only happen in the context of the otherworlds (where natural laws do not apply anyway). Weak miracles are a fact of life, though I do not personally like using the term "miracle."

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Seems that most agree that miracles are simply rare advantageous events, and that they have natural causes, even if we do not fully understand those causes.

Still, people use this term in everyday life (the media is especially fond of it), but it appears to me that we use it somewhat inconsistently. For instance, a person making a full recovery from cancer is a miracle but someone winning millions of dollars in the lottery is not, even if the statistical chance of each might be equal.

Still, this is just semantics I guess.

The Online Oxford Dictionary, while supporting this view, gives this as their main definition of a miracle:
"an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".

So if we're speaking in religious terms, a miracle would in effect have to be a suspension or counteract of natural law in order produce some effect.
I mentioned earlier the example of the Sun standing still (which, as we now know, would in fact have to mean that the Earth was standing still), something that would have to be nothing less than a miracle according to our current understanding of the universe.

Are there such miracles or are they made up/highly exaggerated stories retold over the generations?

Something that blatantly breaks natural law simply does not happen. When such stories are told in religious texts, they are used to teach a point, and that point is generally a moral one, not a historical or scientific one.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

1) Yes
2) Supernatural miracles which defy reality and then Miracles such as miraculous healing on someones deathbed, where Docs say its unexplainable. Of course this last one can be easily called "goodluck".
3) See 2

 

[jarofthoughts]

Something that blatantly breaks natural law simply does not happen. When such stories are told in religious texts, they are used to teach a point, and that point is generally a moral one, not a historical or scientific one.

And yet, certain people tend to interpret them as if they really happened as described.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Supernatural miracles which defy reality and then Miracles such as miraculous healing on someones deathbed, where Docs say its unexplainable. Of course this last one can be easily called "goodluck".

As mentioned earlier, statistically improbable things happen all the time, and the sheer number of people in the world dictate that sometimes it happens to someone.
People are notoriously bad at judging statistical chance and they tend to put way too much weight on anecdotes.

I’ll try to illustrate with an example.

We’ve all heard the story about someone who dreamt of their uncle/grandma/friend/whatever the very night they died. Usually people take this as a sign of some kind of psychic connection or something equally silly. And they invariably forget to do the math.

In the US there are in the excess of 300 million people. Let’s be generous and say that about half of those people are adults, about 150 million. Now, how many of those people do you think dreams about someone close to them every night? One percent? Heck, let’s go all out and call it one tenth of a percent. That still leaves about 150.000 people dreaming about loved ones every night of the year. Now, in any given day, how many people die in the US? According to the CIA Factbook that number is 6,744. So let’s quickly calculate the chances that someone who died had someone dreaming about them the very night they kicked the bucket.
Each person in the US has a statistical chance of someone dreaming about them each night of 0,05% (150000 / 300000000 x 100). Multiply that with the number of people who on average die each night and you get in the excess of 300%. In other words, this should happen to around three people in the US every single night!!! Even given leeway for the fact that people often doesn’t remember their dreams this phenomenon should crop up pretty damn often. But these are only the hits. When doing science we have to keep track of the misses as well, and in this case we still have at least 6741 people who died without anyone at all dreaming about them. The problem is that we never hear about the misses.

The same calculation could be done with 'miraculous' recoveries and suchlike.
There is little in the way of consistency, and the fact of the matter is that sometimes, by pure chance, people just get lucky.