Let's talk miracles...

[Storm]

Well, what you're essentially saying is that life-force, freely given is the source of power in this equation.

Yes.

That means that it is the interest of the powers that be to keep the public as compliant as possible, probably through keeping them ignorant and/or on drugs, to maximize that potential.

Who do you think are "the powers that be?" It's in any number of entities' interest, from the Others who seek worship to the POTUS, but few have the capacity to act on that interest.

Secondly, you say that faith is the gateway through which this power is accessed,

How are you defining faith here?

On the surface, I agree, but I mean faith in the sense of profundity of belief/ trust, not mere assent. Everyone has faith in something, it's the foundation of the worldview. A total absence would result in psychosis.

meaning that whoever controls this now massive source of power would probably be extremely delusional and/or rock stupid, thus being capable of believing just about anything.

Not at all. We each control our own power. I control mine, and you control yours.

It stands to reason that this would also likely be a person with an aptitude for marketing since he/she would have to convince people to give up their life-force freely.

LOL again. The thing is faith as I mean it is not so easily persuaded.

So, what we end up with is a delusional marketing executive ruling an ignorant and drug induced public to create the most messed up reality imaginable.

In other words, pretty much how things are now.

Funny as hell, but equally inaccurate.

 

[Erebus]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

1. It's not a word I use often, I'm of the opinion that if something exists/happens (even if we don't understand it) it still falls within the bounds of nature.

2.I'd probably consider something a miracle if it was suitably extreme and baffling enough. If my grandad walked through the door alive and well after having been cremated several years ago I'd be inclined to call it a miracle. To me "miracle" is more useful for describing the extraordinary than categorising set phenomena.

3. In my mind, like I said in post 2. it would be suitably shocking and baffling to warrant the description.

Perhaps a little boring of me to think of "miracles" in this way, but hey

 

[glyphkenn]

I have a few questions regarding this...

1. Do you believe there is such a thing as miracles?

2. What are miracles and how do you separate them from other rare, but natural, fortunate events?

3. What is the justification for calling something a miracle?

I remember a kid stole his father's car and drove it off a cliff and lived . Everyone called it a miracle but the kid. He claimed the he was in control of the car all the way. Then at the end when the car was about to hit a big rock he jumped in the back seat. He said anyone can do that. I think what we call miracles today is just a matter of beating extreme odds. I've never seen or heard anything that suggests devine intervention . How come only when strangely good things happen they're called miracles ? If I buried my life savings in the ground . Then a earthquake shift the landscape to where I can't find my money. What a are the odds of that. Why is that a tragedy and not a miracle freeing me from mr dependency on money.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Yes.


Who do you think are "the powers that be?" It's in any number of entities' interest, from the Others who seek worship to the POTUS, but few have the capacity to act on that interest.


How are you defining faith here?

On the surface, I agree, but I mean faith in the sense of profundity of belief/ trust, not mere assent. Everyone has faith in something, it's the foundation of the worldview. A total absence would result in psychosis.


Not at all. We each control our own power. I control mine, and you control yours.


LOL again. The thing is faith as I mean it is not so easily persuaded.


Funny as hell, but equally inaccurate.

Well, in that case it seems we have slightly diverging views on what faith is, and seeing as this was your proposition I think it best if you define what you mean by faith.

 

[Storm]

Well, in that case it seems we have slightly diverging views on what faith is, and seeing as this was your proposition I think it best if you define what you mean by faith.

Faith:
1) a trust so profound it guides every relevant choice you make.
2) an equally profound belief
and before we talk past each other again:

Belief:
Acceptance of the truth of a given proposition.

I have faith in God, yes. That is not to say I have blind belief (gullibility). I have the same kind of faith in the scientific method, in the love of my father, in the reality of 2 + 2 = 4. Faith in my understanding is the foundation of EVERY worldview... without it, we cannot operate in the world.

So, while I realize that my usage is not the sole valid definition... I'm sure you can see the radical difference between what I said, and what you heard. No?

 

[Thief]

Faith:
1) a trust so profound it guides every relevant choice you make.
2) an equally profound belief
and before we talk past each other again:

Belief:
Acceptance of the truth of a given proposition.

I have faith in God, yes. That is not to say I have blind belief (gullibility). I have the same kind of faith in the scientific method, in the love of my father, in the reality of 2 + 2 = 4. Faith in my understanding is the foundation of EVERY worldview... without it, we cannot operate in the world.

So, while I realize that my usage is not the sole valid definition... I'm sure you can see the radical difference between what I said, and what you heard. No?

Are you describing faith as something you can prove?

Faith is an item that requires no proof.

As for miracles....
An event that cannot be explained...and yet happened.

Storms go away when you say so...(not you Storm)....walk on water...raise the dead.

We cannot add to our height one cubit...
nor cause one hair, to be white or black.

Miracles are of chance?....or of will?...or of faith?....
"By your faith so it will be done."

Maybe...no one really believes in miracles.

 

[Storm]

Are you describing faith as something you can prove?

No.

 

[839311]

nor cause one hair, to be white or black.

Plenty of dyes out there

We already have genetic engineering, so not much for that saying. Turning hairs white or black isnt too interesting either. How about vegetables that have an antifreeze gene in them to help them survive colder climates?

"The cats, which are adorable in my entirely scientific opinion, were created using a virus that carried genetic information into the eggs from which the minute glowing fluffballs sprang. The gene, called green fluorescent protein or GFP, originated in Jellyfish and is frequently used as a genetic marker to "tag" different proteins, making them glow under fluorescence microscopy. Glowing cats, along with a whole range of different fluorescent animals, have been produced before via traditional cloning techniques, but this marks the first time gamete-targeted transgenesis has been used on a carnivore." - The Escapist : News : New Genetically Modified Cats Are Cute, Cuddly And Fluorescent

 

[jarofthoughts]

Faith:
1) a trust so profound it guides every relevant choice you make.
2) an equally profound belief
and before we talk past each other again:

Belief:
Acceptance of the truth of a given proposition.

I have faith in God, yes. That is not to say I have blind belief (gullibility). I have the same kind of faith in the scientific method, in the love of my father, in the reality of 2 + 2 = 4. Faith in my understanding is the foundation of EVERY worldview... without it, we cannot operate in the world.

So, while I realize that my usage is not the sole valid definition... I'm sure you can see the radical difference between what I said, and what you heard. No?

I have a couple of follow up questions in that regard if you don't mind.
How do you equate your faith in god with the love of your father where the latter is reinforced by tangible evidence over several decades not to mention that you have physical tangible evidence that your father exists, when in the former there is no evidence of any kind?
As for your definition of faith, where would you say that this 'trust so profound it guides every relevant choice' comes from?

 

[Thief]

Plenty of dyes out there

We already have genetic engineering, so not much for that saying. Turning hairs white or black isnt too interesting either. How about vegetables that have an antifreeze gene in them to help them survive colder climates?

"The cats, which are adorable in my entirely scientific opinion, were created using a virus that carried genetic information into the eggs from which the minute glowing fluffballs sprang. The gene, called green fluorescent protein or GFP, originated in Jellyfish and is frequently used as a genetic marker to "tag" different proteins, making them glow under fluorescence microscopy. Glowing cats, along with a whole range of different fluorescent animals, have been produced before via traditional cloning techniques, but this marks the first time gamete-targeted transgenesis has been used on a carnivore." - The Escapist : News : New Genetically Modified Cats Are Cute, Cuddly And Fluorescent

yeah...well....are we not discussing miracles?

Miracles and manipulation, are nowhere close to the same idea.

 

[swamplizard]

Existence precedes and exceeds any concepts concerning "miracles."

just more boggy ramblings,
best,
swampy

 

[Storm]

I have a couple of follow up questions in that regard if you don't mind.

Of course not.

How do you equate your faith in god with the love of your father where the latter is reinforced by tangible evidence over several decades not to mention that you have physical tangible evidence that your father exists, when in the former there is no evidence of any kind?

You shouldn't assume such things. I don't have faith that God exists - I have 'seen' it. I have faith that what I 'saw' is worthy of my adoration.

As for my father, I didn't always have faith in him, but explaining that would totally derail the thread.

As for your definition of faith, where would you say that this 'trust so profound it guides every relevant choice' comes from?

Trust is earned, in my world. The source varies with the target, however, so there is no one answer.

 

[jarofthoughts]

You shouldn't assume such things. I don't have faith that God exists - I have 'seen' it. I have faith that what I 'saw' is worthy of my adoration.

Could you elaborate a bit on this point?
As you might imagine I am somewhat reluctant to accept the existence of a god, any god, merely on your testimony.

 

[Storm]

Could you elaborate a bit on this point?
As you might imagine I am somewhat reluctant to accept the existence of a god, any god, merely on your testimony.

I have nothing but contempt for second-hand revelation, so don't worry about that.

When I was 11, I had an intense and transformative theophany and was the recipient of a personal miracle. It's far too private to go into detail on the open forum, but you are welcome to pm me.

Basically, I experienced SOMETHING that defies comprehension, much less communication. I have spent the rest of my life devoted to the impossible dream of making sense of it, but I recognized it, instinctively and viscerally as "God." Every fiber of my being knew it... it's just that my intellect answers the certainty with "OK.. so what does it MEAN?" LOL.

So, I have no faith in the more common sense of "unevidenced belief," but I have that life-changing trust in the entity I encountered.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I have nothing but contempt for second-hand revelation, so don't worry about that.

When I was 11, I had an intense and transformative theophany and was the recipient of a personal miracle. It's far too private to go into detail on the open forum, but you are welcome to pm me.

Basically, I experienced SOMETHING that defies comprehension, much less communication. I have spent the rest of my life devoted to the impossible dream of making sense of it, but I recognized it, instinctively and viscerally as "God." Every fiber of my being knew it... it's just that my intellect answers the certainty with "OK.. so what does it MEAN?" LOL.

Fair enough, and before I start telling my view on this, please keep in mind that I in no way intend to demean or belittle your experience.
Without knowing the details, I have a problem with personal revelations of any kind, and to put it pointedly, if I had one myself I would almost certainly not believe it.
This not only stems from what I have read about how easily the human mind is deceived and the fact that we are essentially hallucinating to one degree or another all the time, but also from personal experience.
When I was hospitalised some two years ago I lay in a coma for about a week, during the two days it took me to come out of that coma I had some rather heavy hallucinations. I vividly saw things that were impossible and that I could make no sense of to the degree that I was completely unable to distinguish them from reality.
This taught me that I need more than my own perception to determine what reality is.

So, I have no faith in the more common sense of "unevidenced belief," but I have that life-changing trust in the entity I encountered.

And if that works for you then I am not going to try to take that away from you, but if this is what you meant by faith in your original example, then it would be a very rare thing indeed seeing as most people do not have personal revelations.

 

[bigbadgirl]

When I see one, I'll believe in them. I knew a preacher at an independent church who had a rare disease. I saw him one time and he told me that God had cured him and he felt fine. A miracle. He died three months later of the disease.

 

[Storm]

Fair enough, and before I start telling my view on this, please keep in mind that I in no way intend to demean or belittle your experience.
Without knowing the details, I have a problem with personal revelations of any kind, and to put it pointedly, if I had one myself I would almost certainly not believe it.
This not only stems from what I have read about how easily the human mind is deceived and the fact that we are essentially hallucinating to one degree or another all the time, but also from personal experience.
When I was hospitalised some two years ago I lay in a coma for about a week, during the two days it took me to come out of that coma I had some rather heavy hallucinations. I vividly saw things that were impossible and that I could make no sense of to the degree that I was completely unable to distinguish them from reality.
This taught me that I need more than my own perception to determine what reality is.



And if that works for you then I am not going to try to take that away from you, but if this is what you meant by faith in your original example, then it would be a very rare thing indeed seeing as most people do not have personal revelations.

Nah, you're still missing the point. Everyone has faith, just not in the same things. Pertinent to the original discussion is faith in a thing's absence.