Letter to a Christian Spouse (or other loved ones)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a video from an Atheist, Seth Andrews, that was once a Christian radio host and believer for 30 years that lost his faith and now has a wife and many Christian family members that are still Christians. He is explaining his journey to people that don't understand. This is my experience as well. I am thankful that my wife and kids were understanding and listened to me that it was not a choice. Here are some of his comments:

1. Yes, we were real christians, we believed what you did and were dedicated to it.
2. They did not fail us, it is not their fault. We have no desire to cause pain to anyone else.
3. We appreciate and understand their concern.
4. We still want to be part of the family and friend groups.
5. We did not choose to lose our faith. We are looking for truth.
6. We are looking for an authentic life just like any believer should be doing. It is not about rebellion, hate God or want to sin etc.
7. We are not different, we are the same people.
8. We are worried we are going to lose people we love, lose a marriage and how will it affect the relationships in my life that I want to keep.

My experience has been generally good but I know people that have lost marriages and relationships. My wife believes that if God is good he will show me the evidence I need to be convinced someday.

If you are a believer and know a loved one that lost their faith I would encourage you to listen to the video, it is only 18 minutes.

Interesting. Thank you.

It reminds me of advice I heard from Matt Dillahunty years ago for atheists who have deconverted: remember that you're the one who changed. Have patience with friends and family, because your deconversion is probably something they didn't expect and may not be something they're equipped to deal with.

Believing in a religion is not the same as having faith. Faith is a choice anyone can make at any time regardless of any perceived religious truths or untruths, because it's not dependent on our presuming to know anything.

This guy thinks he "lost his faith". But all he lost was his belief in some religious dogma. And probably, by extension, all religious dogma. He doesn't understand this because the religious dogma that he was associated with did not want him to understand this. He was taught that religious belief IS FAITH. And that faith IS RELIGIOUS BELIEF. And unfortunately his friends and family were taught that as well, and so they still do not recognize the difference. They think he "lost his faith", too. But faith is available to all of us whenever we choose. It's always an option. And we don't have to deny anything about anything to choose it.

From the timestamps, it looks like you went a whole 31 minutes from the thread being created until you decided that a thread that wasn't about you was an indignity you could not tolerate. This might be a new record for you.

 

[PureX]

Interesting. Thank you.

It reminds me of advice I heard from Matt Dillahunty years ago for atheists who have deconverted: remember that you're the one who changed. Have patience with friends and family, because your deconversion is probably something they didn't expect and may not be something they're equipped to deal with.




From the timestamps, it looks like you went a whole 31 minutes from the thread being created until you decided that a thread that wasn't about you was an indignity you could not tolerate. This might be a new record for you.

Actually I watched the video and saw that the man in it was not being honest, and that he did not understand the subject he was professing to 'teach' us all. And his confusion is a common theme among both theists and atheists, the tension between which his video was supposedly about trying to ease.

Unfortunately, it's a point of confusion that atheists in particular do not want cleared up, because it fuels and justifies (falsely) their newfound alternative belief in atheism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually I watched the video and saw that the man in it was not being honest, and that he did not understand the subject he was professing to 'teach' us all. And his confusion is a common theme among both theists and atheists, the tension between which his video was supposedly about trying to ease.

Unfortunately, it's a point of confusion that atheists in particular do not want cleared up, because it fuels and justifies (falsely) their newfound alternative belief in atheism.

Translation: "I've come up with my own definitions for certain terms and decreed that everyone must not only use them but that everyone already knows them and understands that they're the only correct approach, so any usage not in line with this means they're lying."

This is delusional.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately, it's a point of confusion that atheists in particular do not want cleared up, because it fuels and justifies (falsely) their newfound alternative belief in atheism.

You've figured out our secret plot, eh.

The great thing about RF is that if IRL
I ever feel dumb, I need only visit here
where I can feel like a mental giant.

 

[PureX]

You've figured out our secret plot, eh.

There's no secret to it, except to those of you that have to 'believe in' it. It's pretty obvious to anyone else.

Clizby up there wants to slander religious faith so badly that he's actually claiming that to act on hope is "dishonest".

The great thing about RF is that if IRL
I ever feel dumb, I need only visit here
where I can feel like a mental giant.

Yeah, boy, ain't those egos something!

 

[Revoltingest]

Clizby up there wants to slander religious faith so badly that he's actually claiming that to act on hope is "dishonest".

Or perhaps you're too invested in defending
religion, & in demonizing us heathens, eh.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

This has nothing to do with what is true. It's about what could be true.

I am not interested in what could be true. I am interested in what is and what is not true.

There are many things we humans cannot know to be true or untrue. Yet we still have to decide how to deal with these unknowns in our lives. And this is the time for faith. We can decide what we hope to be true, and act as if it is true, and see what comes of it.

We should not deal with uncertainty or the unknown with pretending we are convinced of something we are not.

Wanting to know what we can't know is just an ego desire. And presuming to know what we can't know is 'belief' based on that ego desire.

That is not what belief means. This is why we are is disagreement.

Faith is the way to get past this egotism.

Nothing to do with egotism. It has to so with a good methodology to determine what is and is not true.

Why can't you just accept that this criticism is in response to what you wrote? No one is reading your mind, or pretending to.

Because you are not accurately portraying what I am saying.

Why. Please point out this dishonesty. Why must we be convinced something is true before we can act on it?

The dishonesty is acting like something is true without being convinced it is true.

Of course it is, and we all do it all the time. We have to because we rarely ever know what is true.

That is a discussion about certainty. I have said before I don;t think we can know anything with 100% certainty. However, we can be highly confident we know something is true or not with good evidence.

See, this is an example of you really trying hard to find a way to fight with the obvious because you really don't want to recognize it.

Please point out where I am not recognizing the obvious? You stated you hoped your alcoholism would be cured and you went to a AA program and you stopped drinking. How do I know it was your hope that changed you and not the program itself? Surely the program is more than just hope.

You think I am fighting with you because you are convinced you are correct and do not think there is a possibility you are wrong in my opinion. I am just pointing out the logical problems I see with your statements. Again you think you can read my mind, saying I don;t want to recognize it. You cannot possibly know that.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Interesting. Thank you.

It reminds me of advice I heard from Matt Dillahunty years ago for atheists who have deconverted: remember that you're the one who changed. Have patience with friends and family, because your deconversion is probably something they didn't expect and may not be something they're equipped to deal with.

Yes, Listening to Matt has helped me when I deconverted. He said listen for about a year and have those conversations but after that you have the right to not want to have those conversations anymore. It was good advice.

Some people told me I was being selfish and was inflicting pain on my wife and loved ones by deconverting. But Matt pointed out that it was their belief system causing their pain and not my lack of belief. Another piece of good advice.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Clizby up there wants to slander religious faith so badly that he's actually claiming that to act on hope is "dishonest".

Just stop please. I am not slandering anything. I am telling you my problems with faith as a means to determine what is true or not.

 

[PureX]

I am not interested in what could be true. I am interested in what is and what is not true.

Good luck with that.

We should not deal with uncertainty or the unknown with pretending we are convinced of something we are not.

I agree. But faith does not require anyone be convinced of anything. And you just keep on ignoring this because you are bound and determined to reject the idea that faith is not belief.

That is a discussion about certainty. I have said before I don;t think we can know anything with 100% certainty. However, we can be highly confident we know something is true or not with good evidence.

"Good evidence" is a subjective value assessment. So "good evidence" really just means, "I believe I'm right".

Please point out where I am not recognizing the obvious? You stated you hoped your alcoholism would be cured and you went to a AA program and you stopped drinking.

Actually, I stated that I was convinced that it could not be "cured" and that I was doomed to a horrible life and painful death. But since I had nowhere to go except AA, I went to them anyway. When I got there I met people who had been in the same predicament as me, and that had managed to stay sober for a time. And that gave me something to hope for. But hope alone doesn't work. I had to act as if it could become a reality to see if it could become a reality. I doubted that it could, but trying was better than dying in the gutter. So I tried. I acted on that hope and followed their program. I did whatever they said as best I could. And that was faith: hope acted upon. And it worked. An hour at a time. A day at a time. Whenever I chose faith, it worked for me. And it worked whether I believed it would work or not. Or whether I was convinced it would work or not. Whether I had proof it would work or not. I just had to choose it. And keep choosing it ... keep choosing to act on that hope.

See, you were a "believer". I was not. So I wasn't acting on any phony certainty, or on any great expectation. In fact, I expected faith to fail. But I chose it anyway because there really wasn't any option. But it didn't fail. I didnlt fail. I just kept choosing it, and choosing it, until one day I found I had been sober for a few years. Something that I can tell you with all certainty was not possible for me without this faith thing.

How do I know it was your hope that changed you and not the program itself?

They are not separate from each other. Faith is HOPE ACTED ON. The program is that action. The results (sobriety) are the objective hoped for. This isn't religion. This isn't about "believing in" gods and miracles or not believing in them. This is about closing your eyes, and shutting your mouth, and taking that step into the unknown. And trusting that it won't kill you.

Surely the program is more than just hope.

Faith is more than just hope. It's hope acted upon. The program is the action.

You think I am fighting with you because you are convinced you are correct and do not think there is a possibility you are wrong in my opinion.

I know what I know. I know what faith is and how it works in people. And it's not blind belief, as so many religions preach. And that so many atheists abhor. It's trusting in a hope enough to be willing to act on it. And it's got nothing to do with knowing anything, or proving anything, or having evidence, or feeling certain.

 

[PureX]

Look at all these atheists running at me with their insults and barbs trying to defend what they claim they don't believe!

Who has ever seen an "unbelief" so adamently and intently defended!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Clizby up there wants to slander religious faith so badly that he's actually claiming that to act on hope is "dishonest".

Or another possibility: you've tied yourself in knots to convince yourself that an atheist cosplaying as a theist can somehow still count as a theist and have so much personally invested in this that you lash out at anyone who implies that your approach doesn't work (i.e. anyone who uses the terms in a normal way).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Look at all these atheists running at me with their insults and barbs trying to defend what they claim they don't believe!

Who has ever seen an "unbelief" so adamently and intently defended!

Are you new to the internet?

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

[InChrist]

This is why he made the video. Comments like this. Always pointing the finger at us and not god and refusing to understand we were convinced that god existed. You have no idea what his faith was or my faith was. Unfortunately this is all too common, believers telling us what we actually think, what is wrong with us and that we were never "real" believers in the first place. If god is good and wants me to believe he will give me the evidence I need.

You cannot choose to believe something is true when you are not convinced it is true. That is impossible. Seth and I were convinced the Christian God existed, Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead. Then we became unconvinced it was true for various reasons.

If you would like to share, I would be interested in hearing (reading) about your faith in Jesus Christ; such as before you believed in Him, during, and reasons why you lost faith.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Good luck with that.

Good luck with trying my best to determine what ios true or not? Yeah it works well.

I agree. But faith does not require anyone be convinced of anything. And you just keep on ignoring this because you are bound and determined to reject the idea that faith is not belief.

I never said faith is not belief. Look at post #8. I said faith is a subset of belief. You can believe something is true or false based on faith, but it is a poor method to do so.

"Good evidence" is a subjective value assessment. So "good evidence" really just means, "I believe I'm right".

Evaluating evidence is subjective but it does not just mean I believe I am right. It means I am convinced of a claim based on how I evaluated the evidence. There are good and bad ways to evaluate evidence, this is why not all people are convinced by the same evidence.

Actually, I stated that I was convinced that it could not be "cured" and that I was doomed to a horrible life and painful death. But since I had nowhere to go except AA, I went to them anyway. When I got there I met people who had been in the same predicament as me, and that had managed to stay sober for a time. And that gave me something to hope for. But hope alone doesn't work. I had to act as if it could become a reality to see if it could become a reality. I doubted that it could, but trying was better than dying in the gutter. So I tried. I acted on that hope and followed their program. I did whatever they said as best I could. And that was faith: hope acted upon. And it worked. An hour at a time. A day at a time. Whenever I chose faith, it worked for me. And it worked whether I believed it would work or not. Or whether I was convinced it would work or not. Whether I had proof it would work or not. I just had to choose it. And keep choosing it ... keep choosing to act on that hope.

Your faith did not do the work you did in my opinion. You should take credit for your recovery.

See, you were a "believer". I was not. So I wasn't acting on any phony certainty, or on any great expectation. In fact, I expected faith to fail. But I chose it anyway because there really wasn't any option. But it didn't fail. I didnlt fail. I just kept choosing it, and choosing it, until one day I found I had been sober for a few years. Something that I can tell you with all certainty was not possible for me without this faith thing.

Again, I have said many many timed 100% certainty is impossible in my opinion. Why do you say here I was certain? And I will tell you again I was convinced a god existed based on how I evaluated the evidence I had. Why do you constantly misrepresent what I said. It is as if you only have one argument against a certain objection so yo strawman the other person.

They are not separate from each other. Faith is HOPE ACTED ON. The program is that action. The results (sobriety) are the objective hoped for. This isn't religion. This isn't about "believing in" gods and miracles or not believing in them. This is about closing your eyes, and shutting your mouth, and taking that step into the unknown. And trusting that it won't kill you.

Try closing your eyes and trusting the bus won't kill you when you cross the road. It is better to have a plan based on evidence than acting upon faith.

I know what I know. I know what faith is and how it works in people. And it's not blind belief, as so many religions preach. And that so many atheists abhor. It's trusting in a hope enough to be willing to act on it. And it's got nothing to do with knowing anything, or proving anything, or having evidence, or feeling certain.

Ok, then I am happy you are ok with it. But acting without evidence, proof or knowledge is dangerous and not advisable in my opinion.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why is hoping for something a good way to determine what is true?

I don't believe I said that. Based on the promises in the Bible, however, some do put their hope in God as expressed in the Bible.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If you would like to share, I would be interested in hearing (reading) about your faith in Jesus Christ; such as before you believed in Him, during, and reasons why you lost faith.

I can PM you. I am not saying you are going to do this but my experience is when someone asks about why I believed or what I believed they are looking for things in my story they can go to and say "see, he wasn't a true believer". I have had people say I was not a true believer because.... fill in the blank. If you are truly interested I will write it out for you. If you are looking for ways to tell me I was never a believer then I am not interested.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I don't believe I said that. Based on the promises in the Bible, however, some do put their hope in God as expressed in the Bible.

Why are the promises in the bible true?

 

[InChrist]

I can PM you. I am not saying you are going to do this but my experience is when someone asks about why I believed or what I believed they are looking for things in my story they can go to and say "see, he wasn't a true believer". I have had people say I was not a true believer because.... fill in the blank. If you are truly interested I will write it out for you. If you are looking for ways to tell me I was never a believer then I am not interested.

If you are so inclined, then yes PM me. Like I said, I’m just interested in your experience and thoughts, but not debating or making a judgement…especially publicly on a forum.

 

[Unfettered]

This is a video from an Atheist, Seth Andrews, that was once a Christian radio host and believer for 30 years that lost his faith and now has a wife and many Christian family members that are still Christians. He is explaining his journey to people that don't understand. This is my experience as well. I am thankful that my wife and kids were understanding and listened to me that it was not a choice. Here are some of his comments:

1. Yes, we were real christians, we believed what you did and were dedicated to it.
2. They did not fail us, it is not their fault. We have no desire to cause pain to anyone else.
3. We appreciate and understand their concern.
4. We still want to be part of the family and friend groups.
5. We did not choose to lose our faith. We are looking for truth.
6. We are looking for an authentic life just like any believer should be doing. It is not about rebellion, hate God or want to sin etc.
7. We are not different, we are the same people.
8. We are worried we are going to lose people we love, lose a marriage and how will it affect the relationships in my life that I want to keep.

My experience has been generally good but I know people that have lost marriages and relationships. My wife believes that if God is good he will show me the evidence I need to be convinced someday.

If you are a believer and know a loved one that lost their faith I would encourage you to listen to the video, it is only 18 minutes.

Statements he made that I agree with 100%:

• We each have to be true to ourselves
• God isn't bothered by doubts
• God doesn't punish doubts
• Live authentically
• Face all things as best you can, honestly
• Change is a constant in life

Whether or not I agree with the rest, I can relate to pretty much all of it.