LGBTQ

[VoidCat]

I doubt the OP actually cares about the history of the LGBT movement but in case anyone is here's a book...without trans people there would be no gay marriage and a large amount of gay people would be in prison right now due to sodomy laws and other regulations that targetted the lgbt community. Trans people were the backbone from the start of the movement:
View attachment 99646

Imma add to clarify regarding my comment of a black transwoman started the stonewall riots so that people know who actually care are 3 people credited with starting the stonewall riots but most agree it was a black woman. Two of those people some credit were trans and the third was a butch lesbian who was androgynous and used he/him they/them and she/her pronouns. So technically it may not be a trans person if it was started by Stormé DeLarverie getting arrested but the person was still black and identified as gender noncomforming. The other two credited are Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera both transwomen. There is debate however and no one is 100% sure who started it but it's a common belief it was a black gender nonconforming possibly trans woman.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's because what is considered normal is completely subjective.

It can be made objective for this issue.
But your claim sounds like deflection
by niggling over-complication.

 

[libre]

It is difficult to decide how to explain to people who ask us to define or explain the history of the LGBTQ liberation movement.

A lot of time these questions function as a trojan horse for agenda driven debate, which makes it hard to tell people who recognize their ignorance from anti-lgbt zealots.

 

[Kfox]

You're assuming that (a) he knows the difference, and (b) cares. Reread the first sentence in post #6.

If I didn't care about answers, I wouldn't be asking questions. However; let's assume I were your enemy on this issue; how do you expect to change minds on an issue if you are only willing to talk to those who already agree with you, and quickly dismiss those who don't?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Imma add to clarify regarding my comment of a black transwoman started the stonewall riots so that ...

Attempts to transform a debate against petulent nonsense into a meaningful educational rarely succeed.

Consider a separate thread in a non-debate sub-forum. (With luck, the author of this one will stay away.)

 

[VoidCat]

Attempts to transform a debate against petulent nonsense into a meaningful educational rarely succeed.

Consider a separate thread in a non-debate sub-forum. (With luck, the author of this one will stay away.)

Eh. I dont plan on posting anything else in this thread.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If I didn't care about answers, I wouldn't be asking questions.

If you cared about the topic, you would have looked into it rather than whined about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is difficult to decide how to explain to people who ask us to define or explain the history of the LGBTQ liberation movement.

A lot of time these questions function as a trojan horse for agenda driven debate, which makes it hard to tell people who recognize their ignorance from anti-lgbt zealots.

Very well said.

 

[VoidCat]

If you cared about the topic, you would have looked into it rather than whined about it.

If they cared about the topic they wouldn't have posted multiple posts having the same things explained to them and not listening to a single thing that's being said.

Now imma unwatch this thread I think

 

[Revoltingest]

If I didn't care about answers, I wouldn't be asking questions.

There is such a thing as the rhetorical question.

 

[Revoltingest]

If they cared about the topic they wouldn't have posted multiple posts having the same things explained to them and not listening to a single thing that's being said.

Now imma unwatch this thread I think

My attempt at discussion began to
resemble arguing about the definition of "is".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The other two credited are Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera both transwomen

They never identified as trans women or transgender/transsexual. They called themselves drag queens, and the riots were already well under way by the time Johnson arrived, per her own words. It's become a bit of a myth that's been built over up the years through wishful thinking. It's not rare for effeminate gay men to present themselves very femininely, but not view themselves as women like trans women do. Look at the disco singer Sylvester, EJ Johnson or Jeffree Star for examples of that.

Marsha P. Johnson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[VoidCat]

They never identified as trans women or transgender/transsexual. They called themselves drag queens, and the riots were already well under way by the time Johnson was there, per her own words. It's become a bit of a myth that's been built over up the years through wishful thinking. It's not rare for effeminate gay men to present themselves very femininely, but not view themselves as women like trans women do. Look at the disco singer Sylvester or EJ Johnson for examples of that.

Marsha P. Johnson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know the riots started by the time Johnson got there. But she is one the people creditted. Also Sylvia may not have started it she said she threw the second cocktail not the first. They both did identify as a transvestite the terms transgender and transsexual werent really common place till after their deaths. Both are commonly consideres to have been transgender in acedemia just the term wasn't used back then
Edit: looking it up later in life Sylvia did identify as transgender.

Edit: doesn't take away the point...trans people were essental to the movement as a whole regardless

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is where I want @Shadow Wolf to weigh
in about brain scans showing differences.

I'm not debating an LGB bigot who is alreafy blatantly ignoring history and facts.
Doesn't matter this an that, "the queens are rioting" (said when some Tgals started rioting against the cops, starting the Stonewall Riots) is why we have LGBT rights.
The brian scans, even before hormones amd coming out our brains don't look like normal brians for our birth sex with them having a resemblance to brains of our identified sex.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know the riots started by the time Johnson got there. But she is one the people creditted. Alsp Sylvia may not have started it she said she threw the second cocktail not the first. They both did identify as a transvestite the terms transgender and transvestite werent really common place till after their deaths. Both are commonly consideres to have been transgender in acedemia just the term wasn't used back then

I go by what the individuals called themselves, not some "academics" deciding for them after their death to suit the current narrative. I think that's very offensive to do that to a dead person who cannot speak for themselves. Back then, there was a divide between transsexuals and transvestites. The latter wasn't interesting in transitioning and enjoyed their male parts, but they liked to wear women's clothing. So by calling themselves transvestites instead of transsexuals ("transgender" wasn't really used then), they were declaring which side of the divide they were on. Same with calling themselves drag queens.

 

[VoidCat]

I know the riots started by the time Johnson got there. But she is one the people creditted. Also Sylvia may not have started it she said she threw the second cocktail not the first. They both did identify as a transvestite the terms transgender and transsexual werent really common place till after their deaths. Both are commonly consideres to have been transgender in acedemia just the term wasn't used back then
Edit: looking it up later in life Sylvia did identify as transgender.

Edit: doesn't take away the point...trans people were essental to the movement as a whole regardless

@Saint Frankenstein even former friwnds of Johnson said she was a transwoman just the term wasn't used at the time.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@Saint Frankenstein even former friwnds of Johnson said she was a transwoman just the term wasn't used at the time.

They had terms for it before Johnson was even born.

 

[VoidCat]

I go by what the individuals called themselves, not some "academics" deciding for them after their death to suit the current narrative. I think that's very offensive to do that to a dead person who cannot speak for themselves. Back then, there was a divide between transsexuals and transvestites. The latter wasn't interesting in transitioning and enjoyed their male parts, but they liked to wear women's clothing. So by calling themselves transvestites instead of transsexuals ("transgender" wasn't really used then), they were declaring which side of the divide they were on. Same with calling themselves drag queens.

Again I'm not basing off academics but by former friends of hers. They claim she was transgender just the term wasn't used. As for Sylvia she did later in life identify as a transwoman. Regardless...doesn't take away the point: transfolk were essential to the movement.

 

[PureX]

Why is the T in the same category as the LG&B? The LG&B is about who you are sexually attracted to, but the T is about what you identify as; which is completely different. Am I missing something here? Your thoughts?

Cars, trucks, and even airplanes are all "motor vehicles". In this case it's just a collection of non hetero-normative descriptors.

 

[VoidCat]

They had terms for it before Johnson was even born.

I'm sure. Terms for it could exist. Doesn't mean they were commonplace