• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

LHP Only: The Differences Between Lucifer and Satan

Liu

Well-Known Member
Do you believe in an objective reality, or are you a metaphysical idealist? I can see how trying to separate your concepts of Lucifer and Satan would make you uneasy if you were a metaphysical idealist.
I'm a metaphysical skepticist, but I seem to lean more towards idealism than realism. But well, depends on what you mean by it. Do you mean that I believe that everything, also matter, is foremost mental, or, in other words, there is no fundamental difference between what seems to be in the mind (=thoughts) and outside of it (=matter)? Then yes. Do you mean that I believe that there are some ephemeral basic "ideas" underlying all reality in the way Platon meant that? Then no. Regarding the existence of an objective reality, I don't really see that as a contradiction to the idealistic assumption of everything-is-mind. The objective reality exists, it just looks different depending on how one looks at it and there is no way to look at it objectively.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I'm a metaphysical skepticist, but I seem to lean more towards idealism than realism. But well, depends on what you mean by it. Do you mean that I believe that everything, also matter, is foremost mental, or, in other words, there is no fundamental difference between what seems to be in the mind (=thoughts) and outside of it (=matter)? Then yes. Do you mean that I believe that there are some ephemeral basic "ideas" underlying all reality in the way Platon meant that? Then no. Regarding the existence of an objective reality, I don't really see that as a contradiction to the idealistic assumption of everything-is-mind. The objective reality exists, it just looks different depending on how one looks at it and there is no way to look at it objectively.
This is what I mean by metaphysical idealism:
"Metaphysical idealism" is the name philosophers give to the theory of reality or "metaphysics" which holds that the only independently real entities or "substances" are minds and their properties. The most general catch-all word with which to refer to mental properties is "ideas."​
Indeed, it does look like you most definitely lean towards metaphysical idealism.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
@crossfire Lucifer is not Satan. IMO Lucifer is an archetype/Title and not a being.

Really luciferians should rename ourselves Prometheans
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Thanks for responding, Iti. I say take the name back, even though it has been demonized.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Thanks for responding, Iti. I say take the name back, even though it has been demonized.
Ehh I have 0 attachment to the name and no justification(in necessity) for using it and Prometheus is a more well known story.
 

Ralphg

Member
Has anyone of you ever heard of the 'Unknown Daughter'?
or 'Stupid Sister' which I think are 1 and the same.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Here's a LHP thinker who distinguishes Satan, Lucifer, and Prometheus:
http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/theology.html#Satan
http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/risingGods.html

I was getting ready to scream "cultural appropriation" but from a Hellenic perspective she does have Prometheus right. I hope no-one objects to my presence; unlike some, I consider theistic Satanism has as much (or more) in common with traditional paganism as, say, Wicca.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
The Lucifer archetype has become one of wisdom, enlightenment, rebellion against authority, a balance of "light" and "dark" or "Celestial" and "Infernal"... whereas the Satan archetype has become malicious, criminal, adversarial, Infernal...

In the original Judiac perspective, Satan was viewed as a loyal servant of God, whose role as the devil fulfilled the will of God. The Christian evolution of that perspective transformed Satan into the source of all evil, and the adversary of God and humanity. In Islam, Iblis was expelled from paradise for disobeying God, and became a force seeking to lure humans away from God. In all of these epic religions, Satan fulfills a common purpose... a powerful obstacle within that is to be constantly overcome if one seeks to grow closer to God.

The Leviathan archetype has less to do with Satan and more to do with Tiamat. Abrahamic lore of YHWH soaring over the primordial waters in his storm chariot (surrounded by four Celestial Living Creatures) and triumphing over the forces of Chaos and the draconic Leviathan before the Creation of man are reminicant of ancient Mesopotamian depictions of Marduk soaring over the primordial waters in his storm chariot (pulled by four Celestial creatures) and triumphing over the forces of Chaos and the draconic Tiamat, before Marduk reorganized the cosmos and created the world. Although Tiamat did play a far greater role in the Sumero-Babylonian mythos than Leviathan does in the Abrahamic mythos... the archetype of primordial waters and primeval chaos- and the deep, dark depths of the subconscious from which our own subjective universe manifests- is reflected in both.

How do I feel about all this?

The forces Above and Below and Within are beyond comprehension. We may subjectively experience them to some extent ourselves, if it is our will. How we choose to perceive these forces has a great deal to do with how we would experience them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Liu

Well-Known Member
One terminological question I have about that: How can an archetype become something? The mythological characters can change - the archetypes which they may reflect don't change, in my understanding. They may only be depicted with different symbols, and mythological characters may switch which archetype they represent.
Do we have a different definition of what we mean by archetype?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
To me, Satan is more of a Chthonic figure, like a Death deity. Even in Christianity, hell is generally envisioned as being within or below the earth. So somewhat similar to Hades or Hel. Lucifer is more to do with the intellect, imo.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
In the context of the western left hand path it seems to have all descended from Satanism. Satan and Lucifer hold the same general role for the wlhp, a knowledge bringing companion.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
To me, Satan is more of a Chthonic figure, like a Death deity. Even in Christianity, hell is generally envisioned as being within or below the earth. So somewhat similar to Hades or Hel. Lucifer is more to do with the intellect, imo.
Jungian Shadow and Ego, respectively. ;)
(Or Freudian Id and Ego, respectively.)
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Here's a LHP thinker who distinguishes Satan, Lucifer, and Prometheus:
http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/theology.html#Satan
http://theisticsatanism.com/CoAz/belief/risingGods.html

I was getting ready to scream "cultural appropriation" but from a Hellenic perspective she does have Prometheus right. I hope no-one objects to my presence; unlike some, I consider theistic Satanism has as much (or more) in common with traditional paganism as, say, Wicca.
Diane Vera is a smart cookie, I've always liked what she had to say about things . . . the Church of Azazel is basically polytheistic Satanism
 

Burl

Active Member
If ignorance is the ultimate labor-saving device in respect to our condition, I'd say that the 'Bringer-of-light' is the Adversary.
Lucifer=Satan.
 
Lucifer is/was the Roman designation for the planet Venus.

Satan is/was the Jewish adversary/prosecutor of man, and is generally understood as a title rather than a proper name.

All further tie ins are a result of entertainment fiction.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Roman religion would use the Latin word 'lucifer' as an adjective applied to the Moon. As a noun, it was associated with "Morning Star", its divine personification as "the fabled son of Aurora and Cephalus, and father of Ceyx". The second of the meanings attached to the word when used as a noun corresponds to the image in Greek mythology of Eos, the Goddess of Dawn, giving birth to the morning star Phosphorus.

Hesperus is the personification of the "evening star", the planet Venus in the evening. His name is sometimes conflated with the names for his brother the personification of the planet as the "morning star" Eosphorus (Greek "bearer of dawn") or Phosphorus (Ancient Greek:"bearer of light", often translated as "Lucifer" in Latin) . . . all these names are personifications of the same planet Venus.

Lucifer however is not Satan
 
Top