LHP, religion and secrecy

[Daelach]

This thread shall continue the topic mentioned above which arose in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ings-texts-essays-regarding-temple-set-4.html

 

[Daelach]

I'll comment some of the postings of the thread linked above:

@ Hagbard:

However, if one is attempting to traverse the LHP, I would argue that adopting a religion is in itself an indication that one has lost the thread of the Path.

I agree. LHP is precisely about including the heterogenous part, and that means to break religious taboos which are present in ALL religions because religion can be seen as the underlying glue that keeps a group together.

Let's get to the secrecy point. In science, great progress has been made - because they DON'T keep their stuff secret. Quite the other way round, independent peer review is one of the means against group think and dogma. So while there may be reasons to stay under the radar (imagine Setians in a Muslim country..), secrecy will hinder progress. Simply because in a closed group, whatever those running the show say will be law, and this will inevitably lead to group think over the years.

This isn't even specific to occult groups, I have seen the very same e.g. in martial arts that jealously guard their "secrets".

@ Mac Kinnon:

You don't speak as though you have a good understanding of the Temple's degree structure, and appear to cheapen it by likening it unto a ranking system.

Is IS a ranking system. Just read the by-laws - any III+ may obtain the private address of a I/II, but not vice versa (useful e.g. for harrassing threats, as Aquino himself demonstrated in the Lupo case). A III+ may expel a I/II, but not vice versa. This asymmetry is precisely what defines a ranking system.

@ L.Keane:

At no time is an Adept expected to acknowledge the "religious" aspect of the Setian philosophy.

Since the degree system IS a ranking system, this does not apply. The II are not required to adopt religious belief, but they are not the ones running the show. The asymmetry of the ranking system ensures that debates can easily be shut down by the priesthood, as Sireal has tried to demonstrate by deliberately mislabling a critical stance as complaints (only that this doesn't work outside the TOS since the priest rank has neither power nor meaning outside the TOS).

Of course this points to a climate where progress cannot be expected; instead, the typical religious conservation of the status quo is bound to happen.

 

[MacKinnon]

Daelach:

Is IS a ranking system. Just read the by-laws - any III+ may obtain the private address of a I/II, but not vice versa (useful e.g. for harrassing threats, as Aquino himself demonstrated in the Lupo case). A III+ may expel a I/II, but not vice versa. This asymmetry is precisely what defines a ranking system.

I've yet to encounter harassment from the Priesthood, or hear of anybody within the Temple who has. Now why do you suppose the I/II* lack the ability to expel someone from the Temple?

whatever those running the show say will be law, and this will inevitably lead to group think over the years.

Since the degree system IS a ranking system, this does not apply. The II are not required to adopt religious belief, but they are not the ones running the show.

Baseless conjecture from one who has never experienced membership. You cannot begin to comment on "the show", let alone who the key players, of any degree, are.

 

[Daelach]

I've yet to encounter harassment from the Priesthood, or hear of anybody within the Temple who has.

I gave an example with Aquino himself. There is absolutely no legitimate reason why every III+ should be able to obtain the address of any I/II. The ED for sending snail mail packages, that's something different.

Now why do you suppose the I/II* lack the ability to expel someone from the Temple?

Because they are lower in rank, of course. OK, the I* are still under evaluation, so that's an argument. But not the II*. The point is that the III+ is NOT just a kind of spiritual thing because it confers administrative powers, making it a rank. IMO, Aquino's military background shines through.

Baseless conjecture from one who has never experienced membership.

Nice LBM try here. If the argument cannot be attacked, try an ad hominem. Don't try it, I have sufficient knowledge of rhetoric tricks myself.

I don't have to be a cook in order to identify a burnt steak.

You cannot begin to comment on "the show", let alone who the key players, of any degree, are.

Shall I really remind you of the show that accompanied the Schrecks' quick rise..? I don't think so. Be assured that I have enough information.. because evaluation works in both directions. I don't follow up that close these days anymore, but when I was thinking about whether to apply or not, I did, thoroughly.

In economy, there is a principle known as "process becomes product". If you know the processes involved and have quite some knowledge on system dynamics, game theory and some other domains, you don't even need to know the details in order to know the outcome. It is irrelevant what persons will act - knowing the system dynamics of the roles and processes involved is enough. Strategic thinking.

Oh, and btw.. the founding members of the TOS didn't need a Setian guidance from some priesthood, something Hagbard already mentioned. And yet, they started out on high ranks with no need for approval. Going unwalked paths, that is Setian - not following paths worn out by others.

 

[MacKinnon]

Because they are lower in rank, of course. OK, the I* are still under evaluation, so that's an argument. But not the II*. The point is that the III+ is NOT just a kind of spiritual thing because it confers administrative powers, making it a rank. IMO, Aquino's military background shines through.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason why every III+ should be able to obtain the address of any I/II.

It seems you've overlooked one of the key reasons the bylaws exist in the first place. The ToS is an organisation, and has certain legal obligations. You're almost there with the hints of administration. It's not about rank, it's about responsibility. I'm rather glad that the responsibilities of the III*+ are not shared by the I*/II*.

Oh, and btw.. the founding members of the TOS didn't need a Setian guidance from some priesthood, something Hagbard already mentioned. And yet, they started out on high ranks with no need for approval. Going unwalked paths, that is Setian - not following paths worn out by others.

What are you trying to suggest here? Each person's Initiation is different, as it is as unique as they themselves are. There is nothing in my experience to suggest the Priesthood exists to guide anybody in a particular direction.

Shall I really remind you of the show that accompanied the Schrecks' quick rise..? I don't think so.

I don't care about the Schreck's involvement in the Temple. I wasn't there at the time, and how quickly or slowly a person is recognised to any particular degree matters very little to me. I am satisfied with my own Work, and I do it for its own sake, not as some desperate attempt to climb a degree structure. As a II* I have access to all the Temple has to offer, and without the burdens of responsibility that the Priesthood have in addition to the same.

 

[Hagbard]

The Degrees in the ToS are ranks and they are aspired to. In the Onyx Tablet there is a section on how to guide an Adept who is aspiring to the Priesthood. It is also stated that it is natural that an Adept would aspire to the Priesthood. In the ToS paradigm the Priesthood is both a level of initiation and a position of hierarchy...people aspire to both.

When ToS setians of the I* and II* make the argument that someone outside of the temple cannot understand the inner workings of the temple, these setians should recognize that the same applies to themselves regarding grades above the II*. For a II* to claim that they have access to all the temple has to offer is willful ignorance. Surely it is recognized that as a II* you do not even have access to all the written material the temple has to offer. Much is kept from you. I would also hope that people in the II* recognize that it is not just administrative material that is kept from them. I imagine that quite some of the II*'s who have expressed opinions about the nature and structure of the ToS would be a bit surprised by reading the Onyx Tablet or Sapphire Tablet.

To not question the situation of the Schreck's time in the temple is, again, willful ignorance. Of course it matters. This is an organization, a priesthood, MT's, a Council of 9 etc. that you trust as teachers in a School of Initiation , who apparently made such a glaring error as to Recognize two MT's(at least) and a High Priestess erroneously. This does not make you stop and think? This does not make you question the structure? Interesting.

Of course all of the above comes back to the question of religion and the LHP. The ToS is not unique. What makes the ToS stand out in this discussion is that it is the only functioning LHP religion out there. All organized religious institutions fall into the trap of secrecy, hierarchy, status striving, blind faith etc. This is the main reason that religion, and membership in religious organizations is counter to the current of LHP Initiation. There are rare individuals who can enter a religious organization, learn, grow, and move on without becoming true believers. Most people however, are unable to do so. One key indication of being a true believer would be that the person has stopped asking critical questions about the religious group they belong to. Another would be willfully ignoring any information that might contradict the legitimacy or efficacy of the teachings, methods, or structure of the group. Being able to ask such questions, and deal with the answers, is a baseline requirement for genuine LHP Initiation.

 

[L.Keane]

Daelach, Hagbard,

Before this thread simply begins rehashing what was already said I really feel we need to make some clarifications.

There is a great difference between a dogmatic, concretized religion and a religious institution. If you have engrained issues with the sign "religion" then I suspect I don't have much to say as we clearly have a different understanding of what is being pointed to.

The Temple of Set is not secret. There's a website.

The "secrets" of the Temple of Set are those discovered by the Initiates and each Initiate will come to Understand different "secrets". No one controls those "secrets". The Tablets are not the "secrets". However, he Temple does expect a degree of confidentiality. This confidentiality can be seen on a very basic level as respecting the Initiatory current and respecting the privacy of the members. However, it has proven a very useful tool in m own Initiation. It can be used to create Initiatory containment, which is why I won't speak of it further. I'm not wasting Initiatory pressure for the sake of internet postings, no offense intended.

If I feel that something has changed in my own Initiation that warrants looking into the Priesthood I will. However, like Mac Kinnon, I'm in not rush to trying to take on the Responsibility. There is ZERO pressure to do so. I wouldn't be much of an Adept if something as obtuse as a "hierarchy" or "Degrees" would influence my Xeper. So too with the IV. The Temple has RECOGNIZED degrees because certain things MUST BE OBSERVED in the Initiate's life. If they are not observed they can not be Recognized. From what I see the IV is a painful, painful period. I've got enough to deal with as it is.

All I can say is that the Temple that is being discussed in your posts does not relate to the Temple I experience every day. I have no problem with looking at the past or current warts of the Temple but I have more important, immediate, and personal demands to attend to (which is why my replies will be sporadic for the foreseeable future).

Be well.

Lloyd

 

[MacKinnon]

I don't know what's in the Onyx or Saphire Tablets. I also don't care what's in them. What's clear enough to me is that each of the Tablets contain sufficient material as to pertain to the specific degrees they are meant for. I have no interest in them and they are certainly not relevant or perhaps even useful to me as I have no such aspirations to the Priesthood, how unnatural eh?

Just what would I do with such information? I already have access to the core philosophy of the Temple, and I have my own means of applying it and access to anyone of any degree for discussion, feedback, brainstorming etc. That's quite enough, I think.

And again, no I really couldn't care less about errors/or not made about the appointment of previous High Priestesses and Magister Templi. Such things do not have an impact on my initiation, and have no relevance to how the Temple operates now. Mistakes may happen, but from what I've seen in my time with the Temple, they are learned from and and those concerned move on. The Temple is not static.

The legitimacy of teachings and methods as outlined by the Temple's philosophy as tested by me, work for me as I apply them. So I don't care about the possibility that they may not suit someone else, that's fine. Let them do whatever else they want.

 

[Adramelek]

All one has to do in order to find out if he/she and the Temple of Set are cut out for one another is to actually join the Temple. Write your letter of introduction to the Executive Director of the ToS, and if you are Recognized to the First Degree you and the Temple will have two years to evaluate one another to see if you are both compatable with one another. During that time you will be able to study the "Crystal Tablet of Set", study and practice magic, Work with a Priest/ess of Set and other Setians of all Degrees, attend Pylon meetings, and a Conclave or two, meet face to face with other Setians of every Degree and participate in group Magical Workings with them, talk and debate philosophy and magic with them. Two years is plenty of time for yourself and the Temple to evaluate one another in order to see if both can benefit from your affiliation.

For those with a criminal record who are not in jail or prison or on probation, well, as I understand it, you can always pleed your case to the E.D., and if you seem promising and depending on the severity of the circumstances on your criminal record, I would suppose the E.D. would seek the advice of certain members of the Council of Nine, the highest administrative branch within the Temple of Set, and the final decision is made by the High Priest/ess of Set. And if your application is denied you have no another person to blame but yourself! The Temple has every right as a non-profit religious organization to accept or deny for what ever reason anyone who applies for affiliation. The ToS is not an "equal opportunity" religion or School of Black Magic. Futhermore, there is no sense in lying to the Temple of Set because eventually you will be found out.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Kori Houghton]

.... And if your application is denied you have no another person to blame but yourself! The Temple has every right as a non-profit religious organization to accept or deny for what ever reason anyone who applies for affiliation. The ToS is not an "equal opportunity" religion or School of Black Magic. Futhermore, there is no sense in lying to the Temple of Set because eventually you will be found out.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

This is precisely the kind of thinking that makes me snicker at bit at ToS boosters. All adults experience rejection; it is part of life. However, no intelligent person should blame themselves for a decision made by another. I suppose, though, ToS applicants tend to be those seeking 'recognition' from others, even if the others are strangers. So, yeah, maybe if you apply to the ToS you are setting yourself up for whatever you get

 

[Adramelek]

Dear Kori,

You may snicker all you want. The truth of the matter is that the Temple of Set is a religion and an Initiatory school of Black Magic, not a "Hellfire" social club.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Kori Houghton]

I am not attempting to instruct theTemple about how it should define itself, or saying that it shouldn't have whatever standards seem appropriate for admitting candidates. But then I think Rand's famous expression 'judge and prepare to be judged' fits here.

My point is that rejection by employers, institutions of higher learning, potential lovers, school years cliques, and everything in between, can happen to anyone. It is part of the maturing process to learn how to handle it without blaming anyone -- especially yourself. When I changed career paths, I didn't enjoy getting rejection form letters, but I didn't let that stop me from applying to more companies and being upbeat and gracious during interviews. The position I finally got was the best opportunity of the lot -- which would not have happened if one of the first companies I applied to had accepted me.

Experience has taught me that things have a way of working out.

 

[MacKinnon]

Experience has taught me that things have a way of working out.

Personally I'd rather take charge and work them out myself. I'd have been asking for feedback, looking for patterns and making the changes needed. You might have gained a suitable job the way you handled the situation by chance to some degree, but what have you learned about how you approach the application process? What would you change about it for next time?

 

[Adramelek]

I am not attempting to instruct theTemple about how it should define itself, or saying that it shouldn't have whatever standards seem appropriate for admitting candidates. But then I think Rand's famous expression 'judge and prepare to be judged' fits here.

I know your not, Kori. But think about it, an organization like the ToS which delves into those dark spectrums of the human condition which most people find extremely frightening, has a reputation to uphold in a world that is largely paranoid, unhappy with itself, and holds an irrational prejudice against anything having to do with watch words such as "occult", "dark arts", "black magic", or oh no!!:cover: "Saaatanism".

The ignorance and still lingering superstitions of the dumb masses are our enemy. I have been fired from perfectly good paying jobs in the past for being too open about my personal beliefs and practices. I'll never make that mistake again. Even the word "Setian" throws them off, it doesn't matter what you say to them they can go online and look up the word and are immediately given misinformation on sites like wikipedia. Or even if they go to xeper.org they see the inverted pentagram or the words "black magic" and without even reading the material their paranoia automatically kicks in and they think "devil-worship", "evil", "demonic".

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Kori Houghton]

Personally I'd rather take charge and work them out myself. I'd have been asking for feedback, looking for patterns and making the changes needed. You might have gained a suitable job the way you handled the situation by chance to some degree, but what have you learned about how you approach the application process? What would you change about it for next time?

Pardon me if I laugh, but...take charge of what, exactly? It takes time to get a foot in the door when you change professions. The pattern was simple enough to recognize: conservative firms, like insurance companies, wanted female employees to do traditional office work -- some actually wanted me to do office lady work for them, at a higher starting salary than the position I was applying for, but NFW! There was no meeting of the minds, and these firms were doing everyone concerned a favor by not hiring me.

Variety, options, and tiny bits of change, are the natural way of all existence. I never looked for another job -- haven't worked since 1989 :yes: Have no plans to change that.

 

[Kori Houghton]

I know your not, Kori. But think about it, an organization like the ToS which delves into those dark spectrums of the human condition which most people find extremely frightening, has a reputation to uphold in a world that is largely paranoid, unhappy with itself, and holds an irrational prejudice against anything having to do with watch words such as "occult", "dark arts", "black magic", or oh no!!:cover: "Saaatanism".

The ignorance and still lingering superstitions of the dumb masses are our enemy. I have been fired from perfectly good paying jobs in the past for being too open about my personal beliefs and practices. I'll never make that mistake again. Even the word "Setian" throws them off, it doesn't matter what you say to them they can go online and look up the word and are immediately given misinformation on sites like wikipedia. Or even if they go to xeper.org they see the inverted pentagram or the words "black magic" and without even reading the material their paranoia automatically kicks in and they think "devil-worship", "evil", "demonic".

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Where I live now, the most effective way to network for employment or customers is through a church. Candidates get asked about church affiliation at interviews, and I know my late husband was passed over for hire by at least a few companies because we are not Christian. So I can relate to your experience.

But the place where I was born, grew up, and worked, was a different culture entirely. I could happily sit in my cubicle reading a Crowley book at lunchtime during the mid 1980s, with no consequence other than maybe some good-natured joking. One myth we all grew up with in the 50s and 60s was that America was a single society sharing the same standards, values, and concepts of personal freedom. I know better, now

 

[MacKinnon]

Pardon me if I laugh, but...take charge of what, exactly? It takes time to get a foot in the door when you change professions. The pattern was simple enough to recognize: conservative firms, like insurance companies, wanted female employees to do traditional office work -- some actually wanted me to do office lady work for them, at a higher starting salary than the position I was applying for, but NFW! There was no meeting of the minds, and these firms were doing everyone concerned a favor by not hiring me.

Like I said, rather than leaving it to chance by spamming applications and hoping to get something eventually, I'd be following up my failed applications. Asking why I wasn't successful, looking for patterns there specifically, so as to modify how I word my applications, how I present myself at interview etc. That's taking charge, rather than waiting for things to 'work themselves out'

 

[Kori Houghton]

Like I said, rather than leaving it to chance by spamming applications and hoping to get something eventually, I'd be following up my failed applications. Asking why I wasn't successful, looking for patterns there specifically, so as to modify how I word my applications, how I present myself at interview etc. That's taking charge, rather than waiting for things to 'work themselves out'

I guess I should have mentioned that the job I had left to pursue a career in IT was in Human Resources, called Personnel back in the day. I can assure you that Human Resources administrators want to receive resumes when their employer publishes ads for open positions (and back in 1983, I was responding to print ads). Far from 'spamming' companies, I was selective about where I sent a resume; I got an interview call for about 80% of my mailings. When I left all but two of the interviews, I knew that I did not want the position, for a variety of reasons; I made that politely clear to the interviewer, with my thanks for their time. The only two positions I was interested in, and left open ended after the interviews, resulted in job offers. The whole process took about 6 weeks, and 7-8 interviews. No spam was manifested during the process. I was the first person in my graduating class to be hired in my new field (one other person got an IT job before mine, but it was a nepotism hire).

In my view, the most important thing to take charge of is yourself. I enjoy taking risks and exploring the unknown. At the same time, I feel no need to manipulate people and be in control of things that really don't matter in my life. I pick my battles, and take lots of time to enjoy what life has to offer. Obviously not a person who could benefit from being in the TOS.

 

[MacKinnon]

Heh, well it took me 3 years studying HRM at Uni and about 5 years working in Human Resources before I worked out that I really didn't enjoy that line of work.

I agree it's certainly important to be in charge of ones self, but I think my affairs and dealings with others certainly come a close second where I have an interest.