[LHP] The Western Left Hand

[Adramelek]

The thing that I find to be confusing is traveling back to the past and finding out about LaVeys beliefs in the literal existence of Satan? I find it hard to believe in a persons own story of who'm he knew him quite a while back in the COS. I am not necessarily trying to start an argument but I find it rather confusing at times if LaVey believed in the existence of the Prince of Darkness. We do however know LaVeys circles of people who were interested in mysticism and esotericism. I do think that the doctor Aquino is a very truthful man whether or not I think it was a sad decision of him leaving the Church of Satan I can probably understand his own experiences and his esoteric belief.

Aquino didn't want to leave the Church of Satan, but when LaVey began selling the Satanic Priesthood (you send him $1,000 and he'd ordain you to the Priesthood of Mendes), well this was intolerable to Aquino and most of the original CoS priesthood so they resigned, but took the priesthood with them and soon after they established the Temple of Set. I think this was a major blow to Anton LaVey who in his later years became more atheistic and reclusive.

 

[crossfire]

By many accounts Anton LaVey in the early days of the Church of Satan did believe in the literal existence of Satan, recognizing the Powers of Darkness as forces or vibrations in Satanic Magic. Here is a Temple of Set account of Black Magick, the Prince of Darkness, and Setian philosophy by Dr. Michael Aquino;

Good interview. It seems that "Set" parallels what is called "Buddha Nature" in my own paradigm.

 

[EtuMalku]

Herald of the Dawn: Main points: Individuation, Antinomianism, Self-Deification through Internal Alchemy and Mercurius Consciousness

The Herald of the Dawn (H☿D) is an Order founded on the Principles of Internal Alchemy, a Western Left Hand Path philosophy which prescribes that we are fallen Lucifers in this objective / physical state of Being, and that through separation and control of the objective universe we can Become more than Human and ultimately bring the Current of our Higher Self into our self thus attaining what the Order calls Mercurius Consciousness.

Source

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Where did you get that from? See, you are unable to comprehend things. The ToS is as WLHP as you get.

ROFL

So the 'wllp'(lol, still cant type that without laughing), in your words, has to be non theistic, or it 'is simply another version of the RHP'(lets forget that the L/rhp has nothing to do with ones cosmological inclinations for a second).

The ToS is purely theistic, although they alow atheists in their ranks at lower grades, they do not have atheist clergy. Aquino himself has argued for literally years at the 600 club that real Satanists are theistic, and that non theistics like you are simply 'satanatheists' that have not 'taken the first steps into a larger universe'. So you have demonstrated both that you don't know very much about the ToS or its founding principles, which were given(supposedly, I dont buy it of course) by a deity himself directly to Aquino, and that by your own standard of wlhp(lol) you have excluded not only the ToS, but any and every 'western' spoooky order that invokes a deity, which is...most of them.

I am unable to comprehend...sure, but only because you are spouting incomprehensible nonsense.Are you just using this forum to try to organize your thoughts, or do you have any ready to go?

If you can't find anything here to discuss, debate, etc. then leave . . . no one is making you stay here.

Well I admit it isn't really a debate until you establish and crystallize what you are trying to say. You still seem really confused, you are all over the map.

 

[EtuMalku]

ROFL

So the 'wllp'(lol, still cant type that without laughing), in your words, has to be non theistic, or it 'is simply another version of the RHP'(lets forget that the L/rhp has nothing to do with ones cosmological inclinations for a second).

The ToS is purely theistic, although they alow atheists in their ranks at lower grades, they do not have atheist clergy. Aquino himself has argued for literally years at the 600 club that real Satanists are theistic, and that non theistics like you are simply 'satanatheists' that have not 'taken the first steps into a larger universe'. So you have demonstrated both that you don't know very much about the ToS or its founding principles, which were given(supposedly, I dont buy it of course) by a deity himself directly to Aquino, and that by your own standard of wlhp(lol) you have excluded not only the ToS, but any and every 'western' spoooky order that invokes a deity, which is...most of them.

I am unable to comprehend...sure, but only because you are spouting incomprehensible nonsense.Are you just using this forum to try to organize your thoughts, or do you have any ready to go?





Well I admit it isn't really a debate until you establish and crystallize what you are trying to say. You still seem really confused, you are all over the map.

If you refuse to read what everyone has stated on this thread then you don't belong in this conversation.
Were / are you a member of the ToS?
I was . . . so please stop trying to explain things to me as you are as clueless in your comprehension as you are in your understanding of all this.

 

[crossfire]

One thing with Egyptian gods is that they could be merged together with other gods (Amun-Ra, for instance.) I'm not sure how this works with theism.

 

[Onyx]

Aquino didn't want to leave the Church of Satan, but when LaVey began selling the Satanic Priesthood (you send him $1,000 and he'd ordain you to the Priesthood of Mendes), well this was intolerable to Aquino and most of the original CoS priesthood so they resigned, but took the priesthood with them and soon after they established the Temple of Set. I think this was a major blow to Anton LaVey who in his later years became more atheistic and reclusive.

For those unaware, Dr. Aquino's COS book has it all documented in chapter 35, and in the appendices. Instead of selling degrees, there could have been a separate title made to reward generosity, which in my view would gain a lot more respect than a phony one. (You wouldn't give a "premium member" the title of "moderator" on a web forum.)

(quoting from http://www.churchofsatan.com/what-the-devil.php)

Dr. LaVey made his most detailed presentation of his concept for how Satan functions in his philosophy in the following monologue that appeared in Jack Fritscher’s book Popular Witchcraft, published in 1973.

I don’t feel that raising the devil in an anthropomorphic sense is quite as feasible as theologians or metaphysicians would like to think. I have felt His presence but only as an exteriorized extension of my own potential, as an alter-ego or evolved concept that I have been able to exteriorize. With a full awareness, I can communicate with this semblance, this creature, this demon, this personification that I see in the eyes of the symbol of Satan—the goat of Mendes—as I commune with it before the altar. None of these is anything more than a mirror image of that potential I perceive in myself.

I have this awareness that the objectification is in accord with my own ego. I’m not deluding myself that I’m calling something that is disassociated or exteriorized from myself the godhead. This Force is not a controlling factor that I have no control over. The Satanic principle is that man willfully controls his destiny; if he doesn’t, some other man—a lot smarter than he is—will. Satan is, therefore, an extension of one’s psyche or volitional essence, so that that extension can sometimes converse and give directives through the self in a way that thinking of the self as a single unit cannot. In this way it does help to depict in an externalized way the Devil per se. The purpose is to have something of an idolatrous, objective nature to commune with. However, man has connection, contact, control. This notion of an exteriorized God-Satan is not new.

The approach outlined here, of consciously creating an exteriorization of the self with which one communes solely in ritual, is a revolutionary religious concept of LaVey’s Satanism, and it is a “third side” approach which proves elusive to many to whom it does not come naturally. It is a psychological sleight-of-mind, not a form of faith. It establishes that to the Satanist in ritual, he is Satan.

I don't share this to insist that Anton LaVey was an atheist, as the essay asserts. Clearly he experienced something unique and tried to put it into an understandable context. But I don't really care what he actually believed, and quite possibly he wasn't even sure himself based on the conflicting reports.

The current COS organization doesn't seem to accept anything but staunch atheism. Yet some members dabble in "psi" phenomena and other pseudo-sciences, and sometimes I wonder if they don't actually believe in these things.

Regarding Dr. Aquino, I've chosen not to reject his ideas for political reasons that don't concern me. I think we would get along quite well actually. I don't intend to join the Temple of Set, however the founder has an excellent ability to explain and clarify many concepts that anyone could apply to their personal pursuits. I just take what I like, and leave the rest.

 

[Sutekh]

I don't intend to join the Temple of Set, however the founder has an excellent ability to explain and clarify many concepts that anyone could apply to their personal pursuits.

I do not intend to join the Temple of Set in the future either, I more or less do not agree with the Temple of Set's structure such as getting a 2 year period once when you become a first degree Setian trying to make it as a 2nd degree adept. I find their systems of ranks to be rigorous, but I find the Temple of Set's view of GBM or Greater Black Magic interesting.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

If you refuse to read what everyone has stated on this thread then you don't belong in this conversation.
Were / are you a member of the ToS?
I was . . . so please stop trying to explain things to me as you are as clueless in your comprehension as you are in your understanding of all this.

Sure, you dropped your fee and got the lower grade info pack, I'm quite sure you never made it to clergy now did you?

Anyone can join it, that doesn't mean anything. I have gone back and forth for literally hundreds of pages with the man that invented it.

I assure you I have a handle on 'setian philosophy'

Nice dodge by the way. Your contradiction still stands for all to see.

ToS= theistic

You="the wlhp has to be atheistic or its just another 'RHP"

How do you justify this obvious contradiction?

 

[EtuMalku]

Sure, you dropped your fee and got the lower grade info pack, I'm quite sure you never made it to clergy now did you?

Anyone can join it, that doesn't mean anything. I have gone back and forth for literally hundreds of pages with the man that invented it.

I assure you I have a handle on 'setian philosophy'

Nice dodge by the way. Your contradiction still stands for all to see.

ToS= theistic

You="the wlhp has to be atheistic or its just another 'RHP"

How do you justify this obvious contradiction?

No, I never intended to be a III° the majority of the Temple remain as Adepts for various reasons . . . I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to fees being dropped and such, I assume you are just babbling here
Not anyone can join
Arguing with Dr. Aquino on 600C is a lot different than sitting down with Dr. Aquino and talking, or interacting on a daily basis with the Temple
I don't see your 'handle' on anything really, much less Setian philosophy
There is no contradiction as I never said the ToS was theistic . . . your comprehension skills are on an all time low I see

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

It's interesting you would mention my comprehension skills while missing my point or miss reading something I said twice and even broke down into bullet points for you.

Sublime irony.

Let's try one more time, even though I am not naturally a masochist (or insane..you know what they say about expecting different results from same actions..anyway..)

I can't believe I have to explain this, but here goes.

The temple of set is necessarily theistic, for reasons I outlined that I'll assume you accept as you have offered no counterargument.

You stated that your wlhp thing you are trying to invent must be ATHEISTIC, else it would be necessarily 'RHP'(for reasons you couldn't be bothered to explain.)

That leaves the ToS necessarily excluded from your thing. How do you not understand this simple logic?

Now, if you want to make a case for the ToS being atheistic, I(and a lot of others I would imagine) will be waiting here with a baited smirk.

 

[Adramelek]

The ToS is purely theistic, although they alow atheists in their ranks at lower grades, they do not have atheist clergy. Aquino himself has argued for literally years at the 600 club that real Satanists are theistic, and that non theistics like you are simply 'satanatheists' that have not 'taken the first steps into a larger universe'.

The Temple of Set may be a religion, however, Setians, no matter what degree, do not bend their knees nor drop their heads in mindless submission and obedience to the will of Set. We recognize that we have initially been given the tools we need, through the Gift of the Black Flame, to live our own lives, to move in accordance with our own will, to create our own creations. Those who move and work (like Set) according to their own mind and will against (consequently) the resistance of the cosmic inertia are of his Essence.

We may seek the knowledge and guidance of Set, but we are all basically on our own, and it is up to us and us alone to forge our own way in the journey of Life upon the Path of Darkness. Set does not seek servants, but rather equals. These are LHP principles which are in stark contrast to RHP religions such as Christianity, and Islam = submission.

 

[crossfire]

I would say that this thread is an excellent example of getting hang-ups mentioned in this post:

I would (from my personal point of view) describe the western LHP as non-theistic in that it is "not dependent on theism." I would say that clinging to a "no-god" belief (atheism) might be a hindrance as compared to holding no beliefs whatsoever regarding "god." I would say that clinging to a god-belief (theism) makes the LHP much more dangerous as far as maintaining a stable mind, imo.

Keeping this in mind, I would like to also mention this post in conjunction with this:

One thing I have noticed regarding non-theists, theists, and gods, & naturalists and supernaturalists: oftentimes the differences between these is a matter of semantics: a tribal god of a theist might be referred to as a "cultural egregore" by a non theist, just as the scientifically verified placebo effect might be referred to as "just the placebo effect" by one person, which then discounts the actual wonderousness of the placebo effect in regards to mind over matter.

Now, much of the differences between skeptical atheists (not debunkers) and theists is intellectually a matter of semantics. However, when these differences in semantics get an emotional charge attached to them, the placebo effect (which has been scientifically verified) may or may not manifest in a big way....

Let that sink in for a bit.

 

[crossfire]

Now I ask:

• Theists: can you become dispassionate in your belief in order to rationally analyze the belief?
• Atheists: can you suspend your disbelief and emotionally charge the possibilities in order to possibly manifest what might be loosely termed as a "placebo effect?" (Feel free to substitute the term magical working if you are so inclined.)

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

The Temple of Set may be a religion, however, Setians do not bend their knees nor drop their heads in mindless submission and obedience to the will of Set. We recognize that we have initially been given the tools we need, through the Gift of the Black Flame, to live our own lives, to move in accordance with our own will, to create our own creations. We may seek the knowledge and guidance of Set from time to time, but we are all basically on our own, and it is up to us and us alone to forge our own way in the journey of Life and on the Path of Darkness. Set does not seek servants, but rather equals. These are LHP principles which are in stark contrast to RHP religions such as Christianity, and Islam = submission.

Semantics. The way Aquino explained set to me was 'the first principle of isolate intelligence/consciousness that is itself conscious and intelligent'

Someone had to 'give' the gift of set, as with all gifts, necessarily.

What traits and qualities you ascribe to your lawgiver is beside the point.

 

[Adramelek]

Semantics. The way Aquino explained set to me was 'the first principle of isolate intelligence/consciousness that is itself conscious and intelligent'

Someone had to 'give' the gift of set, as with all gifts, necessarily.

What traits and qualities you ascribe to your lawgiver is beside the point.

My point went right over your head didn't it?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

My point went right over your head didn't it?

I don't think that's even possible.

 

[Adramelek]

I don't think that's even possible.

Perhaps not. I actually think you do get what I and others are saying SSE, but you just enjoy challenging and mocking some of us more for your own amusement here on RF to see what you can stir up. I am not here to convince or convert, but to express my own points of view and to perhaps educate folks on what to me is the most accurate form of Black Magick and philosophy of the Path of the Left that has worked for me.

 

[EtuMalku]

The temple of set is necessarily theistic, for reasons I outlined that I'll assume you accept as you have offered no counterargument.
You stated that your wlhp thing you are trying to invent must be ATHEISTIC, else it would be necessarily 'RHP'(for reasons you couldn't be bothered to explain.)
That leaves the ToS necessarily excluded from your thing. How do you not understand this simple logic?
Now, if you want to make a case for the ToS being atheistic, I(and a lot of others I would imagine) will be waiting here with a baited smirk.

Ok . . . just for getting you off my back, the ToS is Theistic, they are Theophanists.
If any of them disagree they can chime in and explain.

 

[Sutekh]

In some cases their is a difference on certain theism's, the Temple of Set does not bow down to any deity including Set himself, which Adramelek of course knows and so would some of us. The ONA is quite confusing they believe Satan to be perhaps an external deity but I do not think that they would require a person to bow down to him. The ONA is of course a different approach, they let the individual to chose their own "Satanism's." Is their some people who are theistic but would have a nutty view of things that you might not consider them to be of the WLHP? Probably to that extent. To be perfectly honest this whole Atheism vs. Theism is getting quite absurd. We have to look at the bigger picture and analyze the traits and characteristics of the theism's that might or not conform and might be regarded as nutty, and the other types of theism's be it the intelligent and the pragmatic theism's such as the Temple Of Set or the ONA would of course be classified among the LHP.