Liberal Catholicism & the Falsification of the Magisterium

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeshayahu 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Of course, you will make this ISRAEL will RAISE UP ISRAEL and RESTORE THE SAVED OF ISRAEL, which is ridiculous on its face.

Yes, the servant is, specifically, the obedient remnant of Israel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

We don't worhip objects, and there's a huge difference theologically between "veneration" and "idolatry".

We don't teach that one is saved by "works", so no wonder you falsely believe in what you think the Church teaches.

Here's the basis of what we teach:
Matthew 22[34]But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Now then follow the above up with what Jesus taught in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats-- Matthew 25

Now, if your church teaches that we don't agree with both of the above citations, then let me recommend you go find a church that teaches that lying is morally wrong.

Justification in the RCC comes from Jesus as Savior AND works/obedience.

That is evident in the Council of Trent, which has never been superseded or revoked: List of excommunicable offences from the Council of Trent - Wikipedia.

Source: Wikipedia

Put differently, most Catholics have told me "Jesus saved me, now I must do my part to stay saved," which is like saying Jesus partially saved me. He is Lord and Savior IMHO not partial Savior!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, the servant is, specifically, the obedient remnant of Israel.

How according to Isaiah 53 is the obedient remnant of Israel "with sinners in his death but with a rich man in his tomb"? Or counts his descendants after he dies?

Or where in Tanakh does one's obedience pay another's sin?! SACRIFICE is for sin in Tanakh, and you know Ezekiel 18 specifically precludes the remnant for paying for Israel's sin or the sin of the Gentiles (Isaiah 53).

 

[metis]

Justification in the RCC comes from Jesus as Savior AND works/obedience.

Works/obedience under God's and Jesus' Commandments.

Put differently, most Catholics have told me "Jesus saved me, now I must do my part to stay saved," which is like saying Jesus partially saved me. He is Lord and Savior IMHO not partial Savior!

The Church teaches against believing that we are saved while still living as we still retain "free will". Thus, if most Catholics say otherwise, they are going against Church teachings on this, although that is their choice as we do believe in personal discernment.

So, instead of making wild and divisive accusations, why not consider actually asking questions first? And then maybe consider joining a church that doesn't teach religious bigotry if you're parroting what they're teaching you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How according to Isaiah 53 is the obedient remnant of Israel "with sinners in his death but with a rich man in his tomb"? Or counts his descendants after he dies?

Or where in Tanakh does one's obedience pay another's sin?! SACRIFICE is for sin in Tanakh, and you know Ezekiel 18 specifically precludes the remnant for paying for Israel's sin or the sin of the Gentiles (Isaiah 53).

Isaiah 53:9 here is a better translation
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

I see no problem with this verse referring to Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Justification in the RCC comes from Jesus as Savior AND works/obedience.

That is evident in the Council of Trent, which has never been superseded or revoked: List of excommunicable offences from the Council of Trent - Wikipedia.

Source: Wikipedia

Put differently, most Catholics have told me "Jesus saved me, now I must do my part to stay saved," which is like saying Jesus partially saved me. He is Lord and Savior IMHO not partial Savior!

Are you familiar with the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on the doctrine of justification? The Methodists and Anglicans have also signed this. They have basically resolved this age old dispute back in 2000. It appears that the source of the problem was that Catholics use a different definition of justification than Protestants. Protestants say that justification is the one time event where a person becomes a Christian. Catholics see justification as being an ongoing journey with Jesus. What they did to resolve the matter was to invent the term "initial justification" to refer to that one time event, and agreed that this event was faith alone. In addition, they all recognized the necessity of works as part of that ongoing journey.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION | EWTN

 

[BilliardsBall]

Works/obedience under God's and Jesus' Commandments.

The Church teaches against believing that we are saved while still living as we still retain "free will". Thus, if most Catholics say otherwise, they are going against Church teachings on this, although that is their choice as we do believe in personal discernment.

So, instead of making wild and divisive accusations, why not consider actually asking questions first? And then maybe consider joining a church that doesn't teach religious bigotry if you're parroting what they're teaching you.

The Bible is clear--over 150 NT verses say salvation is via trusting Christ. We obey God's commands for sanctification, not salvation. Catholics have a problem like this:

How many works must I obey to miss purgatory or miss Hell?

Why do I not have assurance of salvation?

Trust Jesus = salvation per the Bible.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Isaiah 53:9 here is a better translation
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

I see no problem with this verse referring to Israel.

So when the entire nation of Israel or the faithful remnant of Israel die (and a faithful remnant have been dying since Abraham) ALL of them GIVE their grave to wicked people and to the wealthy?

It's NONSENSE. We Jews are eminently logical--but forego all kinds of logic--a five-year-old who is not a rabbi can see Isaiah 53 is Jesus Christ.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you familiar with the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on the doctrine of justification? The Methodists and Anglicans have also signed this. They have basically resolved this age old dispute back in 2000. It appears that the source of the problem was that Catholics use a different definition of justification than Protestants. Protestants say that justification is the one time event where a person becomes a Christian. Catholics see justification as being an ongoing journey with Jesus. What they did to resolve the matter was to invent the term "initial justification" to refer to that one time event, and agreed that this event was faith alone. In addition, they all recognized the necessity of works as part of that ongoing journey.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION | EWTN

The "necessity of works" for evangelicals is for sanctification, not salvation, and works are but one route to holiness.

Holiness is not required for salvation, perfection is.

Rome has never officially repudiated the Council of Trent, which contains numerous anti-evangelical, anti-Lutheran, anti-faith statements.

Rome has never accepted sola fide.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So when the entire nation of Israel or the faithful remnant of Israel die (and a faithful remnant have been dying since Abraham) ALL of them GIVE their grave to wicked people and to the wealthy?

It's NONSENSE. We Jews are eminently logical--but forego all kinds of logic--a five-year-old who is not a rabbi can see Isaiah 53 is Jesus Christ.

The servant is the obedient remnant of Israel. Jews have been murdered down through history, including by Christians.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The "necessity of works" for evangelicals is for sanctification, not salvation, and works are but one route to holiness.

Holiness is not required for salvation, perfection is.

Rome has never officially repudiated the Council of Trent, which contains numerous anti-evangelical, anti-Lutheran, anti-faith statements.

Rome has never accepted sola fide.

Again the difference is semantical. Both Catholics and Protestants believe initial justification is by faith alone. And what you call sanctification, Catholics call justification, but you are referring to the same life time walk.

The only Christians who have a problem with the Joint Declaration are calvinists or those who partly believe in calvinism (such as OSAS).

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Do you believe a person who lives a life of disobedience to Christ will go to heaven if they don’t repent and change their ways?

What is the difference between the sheep and goats in Matt 25?

It’s up to God. Grace is grace.

 

[metis]

The Bible is clear--over 150 NT verses say salvation is via trusting Christ. We obey God's commands for sanctification, not salvation

Which is what the Church teaches!!! How many times do I have to post this?

Catholics have a problem like this:

No, YOU have a problem with this due to your blind hatred and "religious" bigotry. The importance is to believe in Jesus, not just pay lip service to him and God.

How many works must I obey to miss purgatory or miss Hell?

NO, you either accidently or intentionally conflate that faith alone doesn't save according to the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, as they mandate also doing what Jesus taught us to do. Why is this so difficult for you to understand as it's right there in your Bible?

Trust Jesus = salvation per the Bible.

But "trust" also means to obey based on what Jesus taught.

Is your church poisoning you to form your bigotry or are you doing this on your own? If it's the former, let me recommend you leave that church and find one that actually teaches the Gospel.

 

[pearl]

The Church teaches against believing that we are saved while still living as we still retain "free will".

The first question asked of a prospective member by an Evangelical minister while on evangelizing mission is 'are you saved'. If a Catholic is asked that question the obvious answer is 'I don't know', but live in hope of.

 

[metis]

Rome has never accepted sola fide.

Because it's not even scriptural in the NT. The II Timothy citation relates to Torah as the NT hadn't yet been written or formalized as "scripture".

So, what guided the Church prior to the NT being written and canonized? I know the answer to this because it's quite obvious, so do you?

BTW, the Suffering Servant accounts rather clearly don't directly refer to Jesus, however I do believe they can be used to set up that association.

 

[metis]

The first question asked of a prospective member by an Evangelical minister while on evangelizing mission is 'are you saved'. If a Catholic is asked that question the obvious answer is 'I don't know', but live in hope of.

Absolutely, and that's what Jesus referred to in his Parable of the Sower & the Seed whereas it is clear we retain free will. And in his Parable of the Sheep & Goats, he makes it clear that words and beliefs are not enough as we must obey his teachings and not just say "I believe".

IOW, we must believe in Jesus and his teachings and not just have some beliefs about him. I know you know this but someone else here doesn't seem to understand this.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again the difference is semantical. Both Catholics and Protestants believe initial justification is by faith alone. And what you call sanctification, Catholics call justification, but you are referring to the same life time walk.

The only Christians who have a problem with the Joint Declaration are calvinists or those who partly believe in calvinism (such as OSAS).

I'm not thinking of only initial justification, but eternal justification. The latter term is biblical.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The servant is the obedient remnant of Israel. Jews have been murdered down through history, including by Christians.

This would mean Isaiah 53 also says "All of us including the obedient remnant have sinned, so God put all Israel's sin on the obedient remnant," which makes no sense.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which is what the Church teaches!!! How many times do I have to post this?

No, YOU have a problem with this due to your blind hatred and "religious" bigotry. The importance is to believe in Jesus, not just pay lip service to him and God.

NO, you either accidently or intentionally conflate that faith alone doesn't save according to the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, as they mandate also doing what Jesus taught us to do. Why is this so difficult for you to understand as it's right there in your Bible?

But "trust" also means to obey based on what Jesus taught.

Is your church poisoning you to form your bigotry or are you doing this on your own? If it's the former, let me recommend you leave that church and find one that actually teaches the Gospel.

Then why is a fellow RC member posting "initial justification" on this thread? Each RC member I've spoken with in person in recent years has told me "Jesus saved me, now I must follow through", meaning Jesus partially saved them only.

 

[metis]

Then why is a fellow RC member posting "initial justification" on this thread? Each RC member I've spoken with in person in recent years has told me "Jesus saved me, now I must follow through", meaning Jesus partially saved them only.

Each of us go through our own path, and some are similar and some are quite different. I left the Church for a bit over 20 years and converted to Judaism, but there was a strong "calling" to return back, which I did cover in some detail in a very lengthy series of posts a few years ago.

In short, I firmly believe it was the power of the Holy Spirit that brought me back after almost two full years of trying to figure out what the heck this was this all about???