Liberal Catholicism & the Falsification of the Magisterium

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The claim of the Catholic Church and the very basis of its claimed authority is that it is a divine institution founded by Christ

And it’s unrepentant hubris. Also science has shown us that some beliefs are simply wrong.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Three words, in German if I may. Der Synodale Weg.

To claim that there is no attack on the Church's teaching on sexual morality is being obtuse.


That the Church has a fallible human element is denied by no one. But to claim the Catholic Church is a mere human institution is to deny the very basis of Catholicism itself. The claim of the Catholic Church and the very basis of its claimed authority is that it is a divine institution founded by Christ. That God Himself has guaranteed the Church immunity from error in regards to divine truths.

If it has erred in faith and morals then the Church has defected. If the Church has defected then the entire edifice of the Catholic religion crumbles.


Scripture is not silent. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

Of course, one can always play word games and rationalize away clear scriptural teaching. Which brings to mind. 2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.​

Paul is not the messiah.

 

[KW]

True.

But if there IS divine authority, odd how the churches can't see eye to eye as to what it might say.

We’ll, we are dealing with human beings and free will, so I don’t really think it is odd.

 

[KW]

As the Catholic Answers article confirms, doctrine can and has changed over the centuries, so all you are doing is posting what YOU would like to see.

I have had more than enough of your fabrications.

That is not what it said.

My point is 100% accurate.

Once doctrine is formally declared it does not change.

 

[KW]

So it’s better to keep doing people wrong rather than admit it can be wrong?

The Church is not wrong about doctrine and never has been wrong.

 

[KW]

If I can forgive someone who hurts me I demonstrate I am partly divine, and I exercise divine authority. I show that divine authority is not centralized into a single organization. I join the church of people who forgive. If I make that a daily thing and always forgive then I am a pillar in that church and an authority in the physical world, working the power of heaven here. Do I misunderstand the basis of catholicism?

Yes, you may be living in a state of grace but your personal authority does not supersede those chosen by Christ to teach, forgive sins, and bind and loose. Jesus told the rest of us to obey the church.

 

[KW]

And it’s unrepentant hubris. Also science has shown us that some beliefs are simply wrong.

Like what? What doctrine has been proven wrong?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, you may be living in a state of grace but your personal authority does not supersede those chosen by Christ to teach, forgive sins, and bind and loose. Jesus told the rest of us to obey the church.

That is your belief system. I have a different one. You don't own Christ and neither do I. So you don't speak for how to believe in Him for us all and neither do I.

 

[KW]

That is your belief system. I have a different one. You don't own Christ and neither do I. So you don't speak for how to believe in Him for us all and neither do I.

That is what the Catholic Church teaches. You don’t have to be Catholic.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is what the Catholic Church teaches. You don’t have to be Catholic.

So how do we live in the everyday world?

 

[KW]

So how do we live in the everyday world?

That’s what the church teaches us.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That’s what the church teaches us.

Not me.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The Church is not wrong about doctrine and never has been wrong.

Sure.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Like what? What doctrine has been proven wrong?

That being gay is harmful. That non-Christians are immoral. That clergy are better than laity. That suicide is immoral. That there are only two human genders. That seven year olds can consent to sex. That the biblical authors are telling the truth.

 

[KW]

Not me.

Then you aren’t Catholic.

No one forces you to be Catholic.

Catholic profession of faith:

With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals.

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.

 

[KW]

That being gay is harmful. That non-Christians are immoral. That clergy are better than laity. That suicide is immoral. That there are only two human genders. That seven year olds can consent to sex. That the biblical authors are telling the truth.

That is not Catholic doctrine.

Science confirms there are only two sexes, by the way.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Then you aren’t Catholic.

No one forces you to be Catholic.

Catholic profession of faith:

With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.

I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals.

Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.

So you speak for all humans yet you don't. Okay.

 

[KW]

So you speak for all humans yet you don't. Okay.

No, I’m just telling you what it means to be Catholic.

Look it up.

 

[blü 2]

We’ll, we are dealing with human beings and free will, so I don’t really think it is odd.

If God is omnipotent omniscient perfect then theologically humans can have no free will. They can only act exactly as God has always perfectly known and intended they would act.

If science is correct in asserting that the brain is a biochemical / biocelectrical organ then humans are unable to make choices independently of their evolved decision-making processes, hence there is no manner in which will might be absolutely free, but instead arises from one's genetics, upbringing, culture and experience.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, you may be living in a state of grace but your personal authority does not supersede those chosen by Christ to teach, forgive sins, and bind and loose. Jesus told the rest of us to obey the church.

To obey the church, strictly. That is not entirely alien to me, since protestant churches often have some minimal creeds or rules that they use to test people. I can't say for sure that I've experienced exactly the same situation but something similar I think.

If the Catholic Church were to accept and implement all of the above; would that not falsify the Church's claim to teaching authority?

This comment is from page one of a reply you've made, and I think this succinctly points to the center of what you're talking about. Its a teaching authority claim.

But if the Church has been in error this whole time especially in regards to sexual ethics then in what meaningful way can the Church's teaching authority be said to have been guided by the Holy Spirit?

I am used to receiving teaching that is flawed, however I have been in a situations where the congregation believes its creeds and doctrines to be particularly superior to those of other churches. I witness it is possible to wholeheartedly believe we are correct and that we are pleasing God but to be incorrect. God does not send down an angel to correct us or owe us an explanation. There is no debt that God has towards us to guarantee that we have proper teachings or that our teachers have proper authority. I think as humans we just don't register that highly. For what its worth to you. Point being that its possible for two people to truly seek to please God but be unable to, and they can disagree about what God wants. God does not stop them or try to correct the situation. So it is hard to understand how you can be so certain that you have proper authoritative teaching. That is, maybe it is difficult for your fellow Roman Catholics to feel as certain as you do.