Libertarians Are The Problem

[Revoltingest]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

 

[Falvlun]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

Republicans. But not necessarily because I like the libertarians more, though I think I do, but because I think it would be better for our political system to shake up the status quo. If the Libertarians were in power, that would mean we now have a viable third party.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Democrats, Republicans, Libertards, what's the difference?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I agree with Falvun. At least that would be actual change instead of the usual.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

If Libertarians ever got the run of the white house, it would only be because large amounts of funding - incomparably larger than that which they currently get, came flooding in from all quarters.

What would that tell us? Status quo shake up? Really?

 

[Shermana]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

Lately I've been thinking that Libertarianism would make the rich-poor divide even worse and cause even worse corruption in the private sector (Example: The widespread abuse of the Olive oil industry selling a 90% soybean/safflower oil product, price cartels, empowered organized mafias). On the other hand, Republicans are basically nanny-staters, not much different than Democrats but with less concern for the poor and more concern with employing a "Christian right" perspective, marginalizing opposition and other beliefs all the same.

Social Anarchism is the way. (Or at least Libertarian Socialism...someone's gotta keep the power players in line).

 

[work in progress]

Lately I've been thinking that Libertarianism would make the rich-poor divide even worse and cause even worse corruption in the private sector (Example: The widespread abuse of the Olive oil industry selling a 90% soybean/safflower oil product, price cartels, empowered organized mafias). On the other hand, Republicans are basically nanny-staters, not much different than Democrats but with less concern for the poor and more concern with employing a "Christian right" perspective, marginalizing opposition and other beliefs all the same.

Social Anarchism is the way. (Or at least Libertarian Socialism...someone's gotta keep the power players in line).

Of course libertarians would make the rich/poor divide worse! Whether or not they have their own party...like the one that is pretty much a hobby horse of the Koch Brothers, or it's just spreading their nonsense by means of the billionaire-backed "think tanks" like the Cato Institute. Libertarian ideology is a fraud, with its own fictional economic theory and their own made up version of U.S. history; so they are pushing in exactly the wrong direction whether they are Republicans or members of their own Libertarian Party.

The central falacy is that as much as they try to portray capitalism as a naturally self-regulatory system -- it is not, and never will be! And the examples of the financial booms and busts since market deregulation started in the 80's is all the proof that's necessary. The basic premise of social democracy has been that the state will step up and address the problems of capitalism that will make a society totally dysfunctional if unregulated capitalism is left to go unchecked. So, progressive taxation is instituted to balance out the income gaps; a social safety net is created to prevent those at the bottom - who may have physical or mental illness problems from falling through the cracks and left to live on the streets; public education is instituted to guarantee a quality education for all children regardless of family income. And, you may have realized already, that these and other safeguards have been so badly eroded that in many U.S. states, they hardly exist anymore.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

And that's what the koolaid tastes like.

 

[Revoltingest]

Libertarian ideology is a fraud....

Nope.
I can assure you that we're sincere.
We really do believe all the stuff we go on about.

Democrats, Republicans, Libertards, what's the difference?

Democrats pretend to like black folk.
Republicans pretend to like free markets.
Libertarians really do like both, but almost no one likes us back.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Nope.
I can assure you that we're sincere.
We really do believe all the stuff we go on about.


Democrats pretend to like black folk.
Republicans pretend to like free markets.
Libertarians really do like both, but almost no one likes us back.

Sure, it's what you guys have likes and preferences for, but what I was getting at is; difference does it actually make?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

There are things the Libertarians stand for that I agree with, and things I don't. Same as the Republicans and Democrats. I think the current problem with the Republican party is the fact that there aren't very many Republicans in charge of it anymore. The Democrats have become more moderate than in the past but they now lack the power or resolve to effect change. The libertarians are still too grass roots and don't have the momentum necessary to gain the White House.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sure, it's what you guys have likes and preferences for, but what I was getting at is; difference does it actually make?

That's it.....rub it in.....we make no difference, except perhaps for a slight
influence upon those in power who might lean a little more towards liberty.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I'm just ... disenchanted with regards to ideologies, parties or political action in the present climate of absolute cynicism pervading the corridors of power.

 

[gnomon]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

I think history, recent history, has proved quite well the disastrous effects of both Democrats and Republicans in power.

I think the Sniff Our Own Butts party could do a better job at this point. Or is that party nothing more than a combination of Democrats and Republicans.

 

[work in progress]

Nope.
I can assure you that we're sincere.
We really do believe all the stuff we go on about.

Fundamentalists are usually sincere; but also sincerely wrong! Libertarian political theory makes a lot of unfounded presumptions - like markets being self-regulating. The contrary is the fact - markets are irrational because people act in irrational ways in market bubbles and collapses. Without the "invisible hand" guiding the market to the best possible solutions, the libertarian political agenda of eliminating government programs, safeguards and watchdog agencies falls apart.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fundamentalists are usually sincere; but also sincerely wrong!

"Wrong" doesn't even apply. Neither are we "right".
It's just that we prefer a system with more liberty.

Libertarian political theory makes a lot of unfounded presumptions - like markets being self-regulating. The contrary is the fact - markets are irrational because people act in irrational ways in market bubbles and collapses. Without the "invisible hand" guiding the market to the best possible solutions, the libertarian political agenda of eliminating government programs, safeguards and watchdog agencies falls apart.

I guess that's why you aren't one of us.
I don't think that "invisible hand" has been work'n too well lately.
It's been b**ch slap'n us around quite a bit.

BTW, I don't favor eliminating all gov programs & safeguards (a common myth about us).
Some are needed, & could serve us better than they do.

 

[gnomon]

It's hard for the invisible hand to work when there is always a government hand out there. Usually an open hand with a list of promises.

 

[Shermana]

It's hard for the invisible hand to work when there is always a government hand out there. Usually an open hand with a list of promises.

What makes you think the Invisible hand would be that efficient? Big Businesses have already proven that they're willing to commit practically every injustice possible when given the chance. Cartels would have nothing to fear. The mafia would grow exponentially. There would simply be nothing to stop an even worse form of economic oppression and resource control short of a Divine Act.

Revoltingest puts it nicely here:

I don't think that "invisible hand" has been work'n too well lately.
It's been b**ch slap'n us around quite a bit.

The "Invisible hand" is not a benevolent do-gooder, it wants to squeeze every bit it can out of whatever and whoever it can and find ways to avoid responsibility and consequences for its actions . That's why the people have to have a bigger hand to ***** slap it before they get ***** slapped. The problem is regulating the regulations, and regulating those regulations of the regulations so that they're not rigged in a way which cripple the average producer for the interest of the big boys who want their "Small town" competition crippled.

 

[Revoltingest]

What makes you think the Invisible hand would be that efficient? Big Businesses have already proven that they're willing to commit practically every injustice possible when given the chance. Cartels would have nothing to fear. The mafia would grow exponentially. There would simply be nothing to stop an even worse form of economic oppression and resource control short of a Divine Act.

I prefer that my invisible hands.....
- Prevent monopolies
- Standardize contract law
- Regulate environmental quality
- Ensure truth in advertising....& electioneering
- A few other thingies which advance liberty, but without micromanaging or subsidizing us

Hmmm......these hands should be visible. We need to watch them carefully.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

What makes you think the Invisible hand would be that efficient? Big Businesses have already proven that they're willing to commit practically every injustice possible when given the chance. Cartels would have nothing to fear. The mafia would grow exponentially. There would simply be nothing to stop an even worse form of economic oppression and resource control short of a Divine Act.

The "Invisible hand" is not a benevolent do-gooder, it wants to squeeze every bit it can out of whatever and whoever it can. That's why the people have to have a bigger hand to ***** slap it before they get ***** slapped. The problem is regulating the regulations, and regulating those regulations of the regulations so that they're not rigged in a way which cripple the average producer for the interest of the big boys who want their "Small town" competition crippled.

Liberty in the free market also includes vigilance for unfair, monopolistic practices.

Also, how do you figure that decriminalizing drugs is going to make cartels/mafia/etc. grow?