Libertarians Are The Problem

[Shermana]

I'd be okay with a Left Libertarian in office.

Libertarian Socialism, or "Social Anarchy", is what I've arrived to as the best system. But a truly "Libertarian" system I can 't see as much better than the current Corporate Feudalism.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Can I ask what's the major difference between Libertarian Socialism and Liberalism?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Questions:
- What are the "not-so-far left social conservatives"?
- Does anyone else keep reading the OP title as "Librarians Are The Problem"?

The ones who are closer to the center, as in ones that while supporting spending cuts, also realize the need to increase revenue and that medicare, schooling, and other programs that are designed to better the lives of the average citizen cannot be the primary source of budget cuts.
It's more for clarity than anything, to separate them from those who believe helping Planned Parenthood provide health care for women is the same as "tax-funded abortions" as well as the ones who favor a regressive tax policy that keeps the tax burden on the middle class.

 

[painted wolf]

Social libertarians would be fine.

Economic libertarians... it would depend on how extreme they are.

What is worse are Republicans who claim to be libertarians but only because they think it means they won't have to pay taxes.

wa:do

 

[Revoltingest]

Can I ask what's the major difference between Libertarian Socialism and Liberalism?

The former is a logical impossibility which sounds really neat to leftists.
The latter is the modern common name for leftist views.

Checking Wikipedia....
Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The article talks about avoiding coercion in imposing a system which would require a whole lotta coercion.
That ain't libertarian.

 

[Penumbra]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

I would find Republicans to be in power far worse than Libertarians to be in power. The enemies of my enemies are my friend, in a highly detached sort of speak.

I find politics odd in the sense that I find very little common ground with people. I have fiscal sympathies that are both highly conservative and highly liberal, and find no widespread agreement with either liberals or conservatives. I also am extremely socially liberal, and therefore align with social liberals and not social conservatives. So I have elements of agreement with social liberals, fiscal liberals, and fiscal conservatives, but not social conservatives.

I am extremely alienated from the Republican party, even though my father was very much Republican until recent years until in his view, it turned into extremism. He's a man that voted for both Eisenhower and Obama, and without changing his viewpoints.

-My problem with social conservatives is pretty much everything. I find everything they have to say, ridiculous.

-I have no problem with social liberals. I agree with practically everything.

-I have partial problems with fiscal conservatives. There are many elements to which I agree, and I can have a rational conversation with them. But ultimately, even after several agreements with them regarding the desire for the government to be fairly unobtrusive with business and everyday living, I find that they underestimate the importance of wealth concentration in society, and do nothing to alleviate it. (I find that capitalism, although fairly natural, is also also naturally imbalanced towards wealth concentration, which ultimately breaks down. And as someone who is employed in the mathematics, engineering, and scientific fields, and who runs her own business, and who also has had a lifelong distinct interested in economics and investing, I find it fairly easy to quantify why this is a social problem and to point it out objectively.)

-I have partial disagreements with fiscal liberals. To a certain extent, I respect their values towards human life and equality. But I find that they, in general, have little macroeconomic and investment understanding. They desire to micromanage, which I believe almost always represents an eventual problem, and a bandage for problems rather than the cause for problems.

So while I have agreements with Libertarians and people such as Revoltingest, and feel as though there is a degree of common ground, I also have agreements with liberals and decentralized socialists. Unfortunately, there is no electable politician that matches my views. I end up favoring a combination of Bernie Sanders, Ralph Nader, and those that support the Fairtax. :sarcastic

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The former is a logical impossibility which sounds really neat to leftists.
The latter is the modern common name for leftist views.

Checking Wikipedia....
Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The article talks about avoiding coercion in imposing a system which would require a whole lotta coercion.
That ain't libertarian.

I want to fruball you again! -cries-

 

[Shermana]

The former is a logical impossibility which sounds really neat to leftists.
The latter is the modern common name for leftist views.

Checking Wikipedia....
Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The article talks about avoiding coercion in imposing a system which would require a whole lotta coercion.
That ain't libertarian.

To achieve liberty, you must coerce others to not invade your liberty by depriving them of some kind of liberty. To regulate the invisible hand so it becomes visible and tamable, it needs to be coerced.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

???

Actually... Liberals are really the problem.


Chris Hedges "Big Ideas, Death of the Liberal Class"
[youtube]bYCvSntOI5s[/youtube]
Chris Hedges "Death of the Liberal Class" at The Sanctuary for Independent Media 10-17-10 - YouTube

Short 15 minute interview of Chris Hedges:
Chris Hedges: The Liberal Class - YouTube

Gaspar Tamas on the Failure of Liberal Democracy
[youtube]PcSzqJmaJRM[/youtube]
Gaspar Tamas on The Failure of Liberal Democracy - YouTube

 

[work in progress]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe
I thought it was the Democrats who didn't want slavery abolished?
That's why I personally don't like using the terms Republicans and Democrats to describe Conservatives and Liberals, because a Democrat can be Conservative and a Republican can be Liberal.

You got dat right!

No, he got dat wrong! Because neither of you two seems to be aware of the Southern Strategy -- which Republicans started employing to win the South, after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act, and most of the southern Democrats joined the Republican Party. The Repubs cast off the black voters who had been supporting them since Lincoln, to take the South.

And, for what it's worth, these days a Democrat can be a conservative, but a Republican can't be a liberal...or if such an animal actually exists, maybe you could point one out that is actually still sitting in elected office these days!

 

[work in progress]

???

Actually... Liberals are really the problem.


Chris Hedges "Big Ideas, Death of the Liberal Class"

I've heard Chris Hedges interviewed a few times while he was trying to promote that book. He makes a strong case that the liberal institutions which adjusted some of the extremes of capitalism, are hardly able to function any more, and puts a lot of the blame on the liberal intelligentsia and Democratic Party bosses who deserted their own values and forgot what they were supposed to be fighting for!

So today, most Democrats expect to collect all the perks offered by corporate lobbyists, yet still get enough votes to win elections with a message that would say:"we're not working on your behalf either, but vote for us or you'll get a Republican...and then the **** will really hit the fan!"

 

[Shermana]

Without government intervention, would there be such thing as pure Saffron anymore?

Something smells odd in the lucrative world of saffron - News - Food & Drink - The Independent

Or Olive Oil?

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/02/the-exchange-tom-mueller.html
Extra-Virgin Olive Oil Fraud: Whole Foods, Rachel Ray, Safeway, Newman's Own, Colavita, Bertolli - Food Media & News - Chowhound

Looks like private producers need to be coerced or they will in fact rip off entire industries worth of costly products.

 

[Revoltingest]

Without government intervention, would there be such thing as pure Saffron anymore?
Something smells odd in the lucrative world of saffron - News - Food & Drink - The Independent
Or Olive Oil?
Olive Oil’s Dark Side : The New Yorker
Extra-Virgin Olive Oil Fraud: Whole Foods, Rachel Ray, Safeway, Newman's Own, Colavita, Bertolli - Food Media & News - Chowhound
Looks like private producers need to be coerced or they will in fact rip off entire industries worth of costly products.

Some producers would cheat us. Some have integrity.
In a more privatized world, there would be authorities who vet such things.
Witness the formation of Standard & Poors in 1860, which did this for RR companies.
But it would still be more caveat emptorish than non-libertarians would prefer.

Should gov protect us from Harbor Freight tools?
Or should should customers who buy cheap cr*p suffer for their bad judgement?

 

[Shermana]

Some producers would cheat us. Some have integrity.
In a more privatized world, there would be authorities who vet such things.
Witness the formation of Standard & Poors in 1860, which did this for RR companies.
But it would still be more caveat emptorish than non-libertarians would prefer.

Should gov protect us from Harbor Freight tools?
Or should should customers who buy cheap cr*p suffer for their bad judgement?

What does doing financial publishing and credit ratings have to do with vetting the production ethics and practices of private businesses? The Saffron cartel could all just pay off the inspectors whatever was necessary or threaten to harm him, mafia style.

The government should in fact protect the consumer from mislabeled goods, who else will? There's many products that you have no way of knowing short of an expensive lab test to prove the real thing or not. Or to show traces of poisons and toxic chemicals.

Caveat Emptor shouldn't have to apply to the entire spectrum of a cartel-wide industry making it nearly impossible to find quality alternatives, artifically driving price, and quietly adding questionable ingredients. If everything was "let the buyer beware" without coercion to maintain a minimum production standard, the problem would be universal and incurable, making today's situation look small.

 

[Revoltingest]

What does doing financial publishing and credit ratings have to do with vetting the production ethics and practices of private businesses?

A private agency which vets one thing can be generalized to anything.
Consumer reports serves the same function in other areas.
Gov't need not do everything for us.

The Saffron cartel could all just pay off the inspectors whatever was necessary or threaten to harm him, mafia style.

Yes, they are a dangerous bunch. Isn't Oliver Stone's new movie, Savages, about the saffron cartel?
Consumer Reports should watch out.

The government should in fact protect the consumer from mislabeled goods, who else will? There's many products that you have no way of knowing short of an expensive lab test to prove the real thing or not. Or to show traces of poisons and toxic chemicals.

I'm not opposing such regulation, but I also see a role for companies doing the same.
I look to them for credit reporting, background investigation, tool reviews, etc.

Caveat Emptor shouldn't have to apply to the entire spectrum of a cartel-wide industry making it nearly impossible to find quality alternatives, artifically driving price, and quietly adding questionable ingredients. If everything was "let the buyer beware" without coercion to maintain a minimum production standard, the problem would be universal and incurable, making today's situation look small.

That seems an over-blown worst case scenario.

Violent saffron cartels....I love the idea. Kudos!

 

[Shermana]

No, "Savages" is about Oregano.

This does sound like a great idea though, a private inspector must choose between a suitcase full of money or risking his life to expose the Saffron trade, and proceeds to take out the Cartel members in the process, I'll call it "Spice of Death".

 

[Revoltingest]

No, "Savages" is about Oregano.

This does sound like a great idea though, a private inspector must choose between a suitcase full of money or risking his life to expose the Saffron trade, and proceeds to take out the Cartel members in the process, I'll call it "Spice of Death".

I smell a movie script in there somewhere.

 

[Indira]

It`s us independents that pull the weight these days..not that that`s an improvement from the last Presidential election obviously. But not being part of the problem does help me sleep at night, lol.

 

[dust1n]

I'd be okay with a Left Libertarian in office.

I'd like that.

Effective economic regulation.

Maximization of individual liberties and collective liberties.

 

[BSM1]

OK....so we're not the problem. We're few in number & marginalilzed cuz we're scary extreme.
But I wish people did carp about us as in the title....it would mean that we mattered.

So....which would be worse, Libertarians or Republicans in power?

]
I'm sorry, I misread. I thought you said Librarians. Never mind.