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Liberty

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
To some, liberty is a most cherished ideal; to others, liberty is frightening. Thomas Jefferson said, “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” Liberty is the guiding principle that thriving societies are built upon. When liberty is no longer valued as an ideal to strive for, societies devolve into authoritarian rule cheered on by the people that espouse liberty but have no idea what that means or what it demands of them.

Almost everyone you ask will say they are for liberty, they support liberty, but people mean different things by the term liberty. Some believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what you produce within a peaceful and civil society. Others believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what other people produce within a peaceful and civil society. The former is true liberty, and the ladder is fake liberty and will ultimately end up in authoritarian rule. When you tie your liberty to what other people produce, you are denying the other person liberty and history shows the demands of fake liberty get more and more on others in society denying more and more of their free choices.

Why should we value liberty? Because we all have a duty to be happy and you cannot be happy without experiencing true liberty. Every person deserves true liberty just by the fact that they were born. We all have one fragile life that can end at any moment. The universe is around 13 billion years old; we live at max 120 years. We live a brief period of time, and that fact makes our lives precious and something that should not be wasted by others ruling over us or demanding by force we do things we do not want to do. But we know that most people in the history of mankind were not born into liberty but into some form of slavery or authoritarian society that limited or downright denied them liberty. Liberty is something most people yearn for but some look to limit it for their own gain. When liberty is denied someone, it is always for the fraudulent but real benefit of someone else. It usually benefits the few and denies liberty to many.

All governments conceived to try to maximize liberty, will eventually slide toward authoritarianism in some form if the people governed do not keep vigilant and fight against attacks on their liberty. This is done in many ways by government promising peace or safety in exchange for part of your liberty. It keeps chipping away until enough liberty is taken by the government to effectively be an authoritarian government controlling most of what you can and cannot do in a society. Liberty demands of us to be vigilant, express our concerns and even fight if necessary to keep our liberty.

In the U.S., where I live, the best way to keep our liberty is to understand what liberty is and what the founding documents say and don’t say. To understand why the founding documents are written as they are, the reasons behind our protected freedoms especially free speech, freedom of the press and freedom to assemble. It is important we know and teach our children why we have separated powers and the role of the federal government as stated in the constitution etc. We need to be able to challenge each other’s ideas without retribution or harassment and push back on our elected officials when they promote policies that limit our freedoms.

Liberty is a fragile thing and most civilizations have not been pro liberty but have been some form of authoritarian setup. This is the nature of people, and it takes character and work for leaders in government to keep from seeking power for power’s sake. Liberty is worth fighting and sacrificing for. History shows it is the bold and courageous people that have preserved liberty for the next generation, not the timid and weak.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” ~ Ronald Reagan
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think it's important to recognize what liberty is: liberty is freedom of the people.

Liberty is not about "freedom" for:

- states vs. the federal government
- local governments vs. the state government
- corporations vs. the government
- corporations vs. the people

... or any other case where "freedom" for an entity means granting that entity the right to infringe on the liberty of the people.

In the U.S., where I live, the best way to keep our liberty is to understand what liberty is and what the founding documents say and don’t say.
The founding documents of the United States kept people literally enslaved for a century until they were finally corrected. They subjugated women for a century after that. We shouldn't look to them as any sort of guiding light for what liberty is or ought to be.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
I think it's important to recognize what liberty is: liberty is freedom of the people.

Liberty is not about "freedom" for:

- states vs. the federal government
- local governments vs. the state government
- corporations vs. the government
- corporations vs. the people

... or any other case where "freedom" for an entity means granting that entity the right to infringe on the liberty of the people.
I agree.
The founding documents of the United States kept people literally enslaved for a century until they were finally corrected. They subjugated women for a century after that. We shouldn't look to them as any sort of guiding light for what liberty is or ought to be.
But we changed them over time. It doesn't mean there are no good ideas in them.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member

Given your post history, I'm not sure you do.

IMO, a convenience store clerk having to spend his working hours in a cage of bulletproof glass is being deprived of liberty. Having to be searched and go through a metal detector to go to a baseball game is a deprivation of liberty.

Not being able to move to another state and immediately start working because your professional license is issued by the state or county instead of the federal government is a deprivation of liberty.

But we changed them over time. It doesn't mean there are no good ideas in them.

But why not go straight to the source of those good ideas instead of trying to tease good ideas out of a document that supported slavery, segregation, and women not being allowed to own property in their own name?
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
To some, liberty is a most cherished ideal; to others, liberty is frightening. Thomas Jefferson said, “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” Liberty is the guiding principle that thriving societies are built upon. When liberty is no longer valued as an ideal to strive for, societies devolve into authoritarian rule cheered on by the people that espouse liberty but have no idea what that means or what it demands of them.

Almost everyone you ask will say they are for liberty, they support liberty, but people mean different things by the term liberty. Some believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what you produce within a peaceful and civil society. Others believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what other people produce within a peaceful and civil society. The former is true liberty, and the ladder is fake liberty and will ultimately end up in authoritarian rule. When you tie your liberty to what other people produce, you are denying the other person liberty and history shows the demands of fake liberty get more and more on others in society denying more and more of their free choices.

Why should we value liberty? Because we all have a duty to be happy and you cannot be happy without experiencing true liberty. Every person deserves true liberty just by the fact that they were born. We all have one fragile life that can end at any moment. The universe is around 26 billion years old; we live at max 120 years. We live a brief period of time, and that fact makes our lives precious and something that should not be wasted by others ruling over us or demanding by force we do things we do not want to do. But we know that most people in the history of mankind were not born into liberty but into some form of slavery or authoritarian society that limited or downright denied them liberty. Liberty is something most people yearn for but some look to limit it for their own gain. When liberty is denied someone, it is always for the fraudulent but real benefit of someone else. It usually benefits the few and denies liberty to many.

All governments conceived to try to maximize liberty, will eventually slide toward authoritarianism in some form if the people governed do not keep vigilant and fight against attacks on their liberty. This is done in many ways by government promising peace or safety in exchange for part of your liberty. It keeps chipping away until enough liberty is taken by the government to effectively be an authoritarian government controlling most of what you can and cannot do in a society. Liberty demands of us to be vigilant, express our concerns and even fight if necessary to keep our liberty.

In the U.S., where I live, the best way to keep our liberty is to understand what liberty is and what the founding documents say and don’t say. To understand why the founding documents are written as they are, the reasons behind our protected freedoms especially free speech, freedom of the press and freedom to assemble. It is important we know and teach our children why we have separated powers and the role of the federal government as stated in the constitution etc. We need to be able to challenge each other’s ideas without retribution or harassment and push back on our elected officials when they promote policies that limit our freedoms.

Liberty is a fragile thing and most civilizations have not been pro liberty but have been some form of authoritarian setup. This is the nature of people, and it takes character and work for leaders in government to keep from seeking power for power’s sake. Liberty is worth fighting and sacrificing for. History shows it is the bold and courageous people that have preserved liberty for the next generation, not the timid and weak.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” ~ Ronald Reagan

26 billion??
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
To some, liberty is a most cherished ideal; to others, liberty is frightening. Thomas Jefferson said, “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” Liberty is the guiding principle that thriving societies are built upon. When liberty is no longer valued as an ideal to strive for, societies devolve into authoritarian rule cheered on by the people that espouse liberty but have no idea what that means or what it demands of them.

Almost everyone you ask will say they are for liberty, they support liberty, but people mean different things by the term liberty. Some believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what you produce within a peaceful and civil society. Others believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what other people produce within a peaceful and civil society. The former is true liberty, and the ladder is fake liberty and will ultimately end up in authoritarian rule. When you tie your liberty to what other people produce, you are denying the other person liberty and history shows the demands of fake liberty get more and more on others in society denying more and more of their free choices.

Why should we value liberty? Because we all have a duty to be happy and you cannot be happy without experiencing true liberty. Every person deserves true liberty just by the fact that they were born. We all have one fragile life that can end at any moment. The universe is around 26 billion years old; we live at max 120 years. We live a brief period of time, and that fact makes our lives precious and something that should not be wasted by others ruling over us or demanding by force we do things we do not want to do. But we know that most people in the history of mankind were not born into liberty but into some form of slavery or authoritarian society that limited or downright denied them liberty. Liberty is something most people yearn for but some look to limit it for their own gain. When liberty is denied someone, it is always for the fraudulent but real benefit of someone else. It usually benefits the few and denies liberty to many.

All governments conceived to try to maximize liberty, will eventually slide toward authoritarianism in some form if the people governed do not keep vigilant and fight against attacks on their liberty. This is done in many ways by government promising peace or safety in exchange for part of your liberty. It keeps chipping away until enough liberty is taken by the government to effectively be an authoritarian government controlling most of what you can and cannot do in a society. Liberty demands of us to be vigilant, express our concerns and even fight if necessary to keep our liberty.

In the U.S., where I live, the best way to keep our liberty is to understand what liberty is and what the founding documents say and don’t say. To understand why the founding documents are written as they are, the reasons behind our protected freedoms especially free speech, freedom of the press and freedom to assemble. It is important we know and teach our children why we have separated powers and the role of the federal government as stated in the constitution etc. We need to be able to challenge each other’s ideas without retribution or harassment and push back on our elected officials when they promote policies that limit our freedoms.

Liberty is a fragile thing and most civilizations have not been pro liberty but have been some form of authoritarian setup. This is the nature of people, and it takes character and work for leaders in government to keep from seeking power for power’s sake. Liberty is worth fighting and sacrificing for. History shows it is the bold and courageous people that have preserved liberty for the next generation, not the timid and weak.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” ~ Ronald Reagan


True freedom is liberation from sin, passions, and the constraints of a fallen nature. According to Orthodox teaching, sin enslaves the soul and distorts human desires. Freedom, in this sense, is the ability to act according to God’s will, which is the ultimate expression of goodness, truth, and love. This is made possible through divine grace and personal cooperation with God.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
True freedom is liberation from sin, passions, and the constraints of a fallen nature. According to Orthodox teaching, sin enslaves the soul and distorts human desires.
I totally agree with this part.
Freedom, in this sense, is the ability to act according to God’s will, which is the ultimate expression of goodness, truth, and love. This is made possible through divine grace and personal cooperation with God.
How about simply ending greed, hatred, and delusion? When you cleanse your mind of these poisons, the sublime states of loving kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity/soundness of mind come shining through.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The founding documents of the United States kept people literally enslaved for a century until they were finally corrected. They subjugated women for a century after that. We shouldn't look to them as any sort of guiding light for what liberty is or ought to be.
The Founding Documents were revolutionary for their time. They even included the possibility for correction and addition.
So, I wouldn't be too hard on the Founding Fathers. But I also wouldn't regard them as sacred. They didn't view themselves as that.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Because we all have a duty to be happy
You want to preach liberty but tell usnwe are obligated to hold a certain state of mind? Enforcing unhealthy and foolish status quo beliefs isn't liberty, especially when it's telling people what they have to think and feel.
The American Dream (a part of which is we're all supposed to be happy) is ideological enslavement and giving your life to corporate values and norms, and endlessly giving your money to corporations because they told you to buy their junk because it will make you happy.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
To some, liberty is a most cherished ideal; to others, liberty is frightening. Thomas Jefferson said, “Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.” Liberty is the guiding principle that thriving societies are built upon. When liberty is no longer valued as an ideal to strive for, societies devolve into authoritarian rule cheered on by the people that espouse liberty but have no idea what that means or what it demands of them.

Almost everyone you ask will say they are for liberty, they support liberty, but people mean different things by the term liberty. Some believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what you produce within a peaceful and civil society. Others believe liberty is being free to do what you want with what other people produce within a peaceful and civil society. The former is true liberty, and the ladder is fake liberty and will ultimately end up in authoritarian rule. When you tie your liberty to what other people produce, you are denying the other person liberty and history shows the demands of fake liberty get more and more on others in society denying more and more of their free choices.

Why should we value liberty? Because we all have a duty to be happy and you cannot be happy without experiencing true liberty. Every person deserves true liberty just by the fact that they were born. We all have one fragile life that can end at any moment. The universe is around 26 billion years old; we live at max 120 years. We live a brief period of time, and that fact makes our lives precious and something that should not be wasted by others ruling over us or demanding by force we do things we do not want to do. But we know that most people in the history of mankind were not born into liberty but into some form of slavery or authoritarian society that limited or downright denied them liberty. Liberty is something most people yearn for but some look to limit it for their own gain. When liberty is denied someone, it is always for the fraudulent but real benefit of someone else. It usually benefits the few and denies liberty to many.

All governments conceived to try to maximize liberty, will eventually slide toward authoritarianism in some form if the people governed do not keep vigilant and fight against attacks on their liberty. This is done in many ways by government promising peace or safety in exchange for part of your liberty. It keeps chipping away until enough liberty is taken by the government to effectively be an authoritarian government controlling most of what you can and cannot do in a society. Liberty demands of us to be vigilant, express our concerns and even fight if necessary to keep our liberty.

In the U.S., where I live, the best way to keep our liberty is to understand what liberty is and what the founding documents say and don’t say. To understand why the founding documents are written as they are, the reasons behind our protected freedoms especially free speech, freedom of the press and freedom to assemble. It is important we know and teach our children why we have separated powers and the role of the federal government as stated in the constitution etc. We need to be able to challenge each other’s ideas without retribution or harassment and push back on our elected officials when they promote policies that limit our freedoms.

Liberty is a fragile thing and most civilizations have not been pro liberty but have been some form of authoritarian setup. This is the nature of people, and it takes character and work for leaders in government to keep from seeking power for power’s sake. Liberty is worth fighting and sacrificing for. History shows it is the bold and courageous people that have preserved liberty for the next generation, not the timid and weak.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” ~ Ronald Reagan
Given your posting history, and the political orientation, I deduced from that, this comes as a surprise to me.
You talk about liberty, do you see yourself as a libertarian?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The Founding Documents were revolutionary for their time. They even included the possibility for correction and addition.
So, I wouldn't be too hard on the Founding Fathers. But I also wouldn't regard them as sacred. They didn't view themselves as that.

The liberties in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights are pretty close to those enshrined in the English Bill of Rights a century earlier.

And keep in mind what "their time" was. By the time the US Bill of Rights was ratified, the Somerset v. Stewart decision was almost 30 years old, the French Revolution was in full swing and the Haitian Revolution was only 3 years away. Even by the standards of the time, the US could have done much better.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Given your post history, I'm not sure you do.

IMO, a convenience store clerk having to spend his working hours in a cage of bulletproof glass is being deprived of liberty.
They have the choice to do that job or not.
Having to be searched and go through a metal detector to go to a baseball game is a deprivation of liberty.
Any private company can make any rules they want for you to enter tehri facility. You have the choice not to go.
Not being able to move to another state and immediately start working because your professional license is issued by the state or county instead of the federal government is a deprivation of liberty.
You can get a licence in that state prior to moving to that state.
But why not go straight to the source of those good ideas instead of trying to tease good ideas out of a document that supported slavery, segregation, and women not being allowed to own property in their own name?
It is our written document that we abide by to govern our society. Do you have a problem with the US constitution as it is written today?
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
True freedom is liberation from sin, passions, and the constraints of a fallen nature. According to Orthodox teaching, sin enslaves the soul and distorts human desires. Freedom, in this sense, is the ability to act according to God’s will, which is the ultimate expression of goodness, truth, and love. This is made possible through divine grace and personal cooperation with God.
Good to know.
 

Foxfyre

Member
I think it's important to recognize what liberty is: liberty is freedom of the people.

Liberty is not about "freedom" for:

- states vs. the federal government
- local governments vs. the state government
- corporations vs. the government
- corporations vs. the people

... or any other case where "freedom" for an entity means granting that entity the right to infringe on the liberty of the people.


The founding documents of the United States kept people literally enslaved for a century until they were finally corrected. They subjugated women for a century after that. We shouldn't look to them as any sort of guiding light for what liberty is or ought to be.
The Founders rejected the authoritarian dictatorship of the English monarchy and embraced the concept of liberty as they understood it within the culture they were born and based on various concepts of enlightening philosophy that had emerged in the old world and especially concepts presented by John Locke, Rousseau, Montesquieu and others. The basic concept was that of natural unalienable rights among which were life, liberty, pursuit of happiness with special emphasis on freedom to live, think, speak, believe as one chose without recrimination from a central government authority.

As protection of each person's rights required laws enforced by government, those laws reflected the culture of that time and were reasonable for that time. As our culture has changed and evolved over time, so have the laws we live by because the Founders, in their wisdom, knew we would make mistakes, get is wrong, would evolve and change, and made provision that our laws could also change to reflect that.

No one should be condemned for thinking, believing, living according to the culture they were born into long ago. They should not be judged by the sense of right and wrong that we now have. It is most likely that people living centuries later than us will see many of our laws, concepts, principles, beliefs as quite primitive and perhaps evil. But we also live in the culture in which we were born and while many of us see that the values, mores, ethics, etc. should change, we should not be condemned for living in our own culture.

In spite of all its faults, the USA remains the most free nation on Earth with liberty defined as being able to live, think, speak, belief as we choose short of treading on the right of others to do the same. Some of us want to keep it that way. Some want to mimic other countries that are more restrictive. We'll see who will prevail.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Given your post history, I'm not sure you do.

IMO, a convenience store clerk having to spend his working hours in a cage of bulletproof glass is being deprived of liberty. Having to be searched and go through a metal detector to go to a baseball game is a deprivation of liberty.

Not being able to move to another state and immediately start working because your professional license is issued by the state or county instead of the federal government is a deprivation of liberty.



But why not go straight to the source of those good ideas instead of trying to tease good ideas out of a document that supported slavery, segregation, and women not being allowed to own property in their own name?
In the case of the convenience store clerk, he or she is getting paid, just like anyone else at a job. I mean, my liberty at a job was deprived too, and I was fine with it. Same with the baseball game. Both actions are voluntary. So is moving to another state, I might add.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
You want to preach liberty but tell usnwe are obligated to hold a certain state of mind? Enforcing unhealthy and foolish status quo beliefs isn't liberty, especially when it's telling people what they have to think and feel.
The American Dream (a part of which is we're all supposed to be happy) is ideological enslavement and giving your life to corporate values and norms, and endlessly giving your money to corporations because they told you to buy their junk because it will make you happy.
Are you forced to give your money to corporations in exchange for junk? How can you have liberty without a free economy?
 
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