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Life Begins at Conception

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Midnight Pete

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
smokydot said:
Gametes do not each have 46 chromosomes and, though alive, are not human life, but the precursor of human life.
Therefore, human life occurs with the union of the two gametes; i.e., conception.

I would like to know where I am incorrect regarding the biology of it all.
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I think you've got a good grasp on the biology (of it all).
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
smokydot said:
Right. . .thanks.

"Human gametes, though alive, are not human life, but a precursor of human life."

That's why I included the qualifiers for the human gametes--i.e., "incapable of sustaining life for more than a few days"--to distinguish living gametes from the living zygote which continues to live and develop into a specific mature human being.

Like human gametes, human non-reproductive skin cells are also alive, but no one mistakes them for the human itself.
And like human gametes, human skin cells are incapable of sustaining life for a long period, and also die.

There is non-reproductive cellular "life" without the six essential characteristics of life and therefore, it is not human life,
and there is reproductive cellular "life" without the 46 chromosomes necessary for human life and therefore, it is not human life, but is a precursor of human life,
and there is the human zygote with 46 chromosomes and all the essential charcterisitcs of life and therefore, it is human life.
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Here it sounds like you are redefining 'life' to mean 46 chromosomes.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Midnight Pete said:
My indivual existence began at conception. The instant my father's sperm fertilized my mother's egg, I began to exist. At that moment, my entity was formed. But of course my parents could only give me life because they had been given it by their parents. So I guess life is not so much given as transferred.
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I don't believe I have been one single "entity" for my entire existence. The entity that "I" was as an embryo is not the same entity that I was when I was born, which is not the same entity I am now. We're all like the Ship of Theseus: even though there's a continuity from one point in time to the next, we're in a state of such constant change that if I look back far enough, I can't rightly say that I was the same person then that I am now.
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
Here it sounds like you are redefining 'life' to mean 46 chromosomes.
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Thanks.

I am defining human life as 46 chromosomes to distinguish it from the mere cellular life of the gametes, which possess neither 46 chromosomes nor the six essential characteristics of life, but whom cell biologists regard as life.
 
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smokydot

Well-Known Member
smokydot said:
I have my "brain trust" to thank for that. . .thanks, Brain Trust!
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Dear Brain Trust,

I appreciate all the "leading" you gave me on the biological facts regarding human conception.

But I'm beginning to wonder, that although you had a better grasp of the biology involved, did I have a better grasp of the principles involved? . .because all the correct biology did not alter the principles I originally presented. To Wit:

1) Two human gametes, which are not human life (45-47 chromosomes), but are precursors of human life,
2) unite to form human life (45-47-chromosome zygote),
3) with human DNA from the human gametes, and all the genetic code for a (or multiple) unique, mature human being(s),
4) which from the moment of the union (conception), is of the same species as the gametes which united,
5) then transform(s) through various stages of development into a (or multiple) unique mature human being(s).

Now I can't make the priniciples involved irrefutable if they are not,
I can only show the principles involved are irrefutable if they are.

Any substantive comments?

Smokydot
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
smokydot said:
Thanks.

I am defining human life as 46 chromosomes to distinguish it from the mere cellular life of the gametes, which possess neither 46 chromosomes nor the six essential characteristics of life, but whom cell biologists regard as life.
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:banghead3
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
The funny thing is that the principle arguments for life beginning at conception have nothing to do with biology, but with philosophy and religion.

. . .sky is marooned in a mixture of misunderstanding and half-baked fantasy.

. . .sky is under the delusion that his position that he made up concerning life beginning at conception is irrefutable.... it is implausible, therefore, that further fantasy has no impact on the plausibility of the first opinion.
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This reminds me of a certain elected high official who is brilliant, but knows nothing substantive and can speak nothing substantive. . .
 
B

ButTheCatCameBack

Active Member
For me the issue is less with arguments about when life begins and more about do I trust people to make their own decisions. Personally I see it as a monumentally egotistical intrusion of personal space to take the power out of someone's hands and either make a decision for them on the issue of having or not having an abortion or to deny them the choice in the first place. Like a billion other things we allow people. There is no certainty that they will make a life altering decision with thorough deliberation, with facts and sound advice. But we don't go out our way to legislate it all out of someone's hands.

As much as I sympathize with certain sentiments of the anti abortionists. I find the usual choice in tactics they use poor and far too often one step forward three steps back for my taste.
 
Smoke

Smoke

Done here.
smokydot said:
I am defining human life as 46 chromosomes to distinguish it from the mere cellular life of the gametes, which possess neither 46 chromosomes nor the six essential characteristics of life, but whom cell biologists regard as life.
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Then I assume you'd have no problem with the abortion of a fetus with Down Syndrome, or even with the euthanasia of a person with Down Syndrome, since neither is human according to your definition.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Smoke said:
Then I assume you'd have no problem with the abortion of a fetus with Down Syndrome, or even with the euthanasia of a person with Down Syndrome, since neither is human according to your definition.
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There are a number of other chromosomal abmormalities in humans that result from additions or deletions to the usual 46.

Chromosome abnormality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One thing about sky's fantasy world: it's clean. First there weren't any births outside of the womb. Then the zygote died when it split, instead of forming twins. Now a human being only has 46 chromosomes.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
smokydot said:
Is there a reason I should do that. . .especially three times?

Does it shed any light on your crappy approach to religious education?

(Website: Religious Education Forum)
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I was referring to you... "too legit - too legit to quit..."

[legit = legitimate = you think your beliefs are incontrovertable, so you just keep going]

May as well groove to some tunes.

BTW - M. C. Hammer is a Christian.
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Smoke said:
Then I assume you'd have no problem with the abortion of a fetus with Down Syndrome, or even with the euthanasia of a person with Down Syndrome, since neither is human according to your definition.
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I will simply change the qualifier of the human zygote to 45-47 chromosomes to include all human possibilities and to distinguish it from the gametes.

Do you know of any other chomosomal differences from the norm?
 
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