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Life From Dirt?

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Don’t be so nit picky. People find it annoying
Technically, it's not a nit pick. It gets to the very core of your post: the likelihood that God created life. Here's why:

A hypothesis in science is a falsifiable prediction. This is something like, "If I jump while I'm on the ground, then I will fall back down to the ground." You can test that claim through the experiment of jumping and seeing what happens. If you fall back down to the ground, then we say that the hypothesis has been sustained. If you don't, then the hypothesis has been falsified.

Hypotheses are what experiments are designed around. The reason for this is that it's very difficult to prove claims such as "all swans that have ever existed have been white." To prove it, you would have to directly observe every swan that has ever existed as well as prove that no other swans could have ever existed. That's pretty infeasible. However, it's a lot easier to prove that this claim is false, because then all you need to do is present a swan that is some other color such as black. A black swan would falsify the claim that all swans that have ever existed have been white.

That's why hypotheses have to be falsifiable; it's easier to prove that something is false than that it's true. If there is no potential observation or experiment that can prove that your claim is false, then how much more difficult would it be to prove that it's true? A lot. The answer is a lot. It would be a lot more difficult. Nigh impossible, even.

Another facet of science is the model. The model gives us a broader idea from which we can base our hypothesis off of. For instance, the model of gravity tells us that, if things are up in the air they will generally begin to fall back down. Within this model are a number of hypotheses, including "If I jump while I'm on the ground, then I will fall back down to the ground" but also "If I throw a ball in the air, then the ball will fall back down to the ground."

If either hypothesis is falsified, it calls the entire model into question.

So here's the big one: a theory is when all of the hypotheses that make up a model have been consistently sustained through organized and concerted efforts to falsify them. If a model is so good at creating hypothetical predictions that seem to always come true through observation, even when people deliberately try as hard as they can to find an exception to its predictions, then I would say it's pretty well-evidenced. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that theories are some of the most well-evidenced concepts in all of human thought.

Now let's get back to your post, because I'm sure you're tired of my lengthy sermon. Here's the problem. Abiogenesis is a hypothetical model, and many of its hypotheses have been tested and sustained. It's going through the process that all models must go through before they become a theory. This makes it well-evidenced, although not as well-supported as something like the theory of evolution.

By contrast, the claim that God made life does not lead to any falsifiable predictions. It's a model without any hypotheses. That's called speculation.

So, which is more likely? Speculation or a sustained hypothesis? Well, a sustained hypothesis has more experimental evidence supporting it, whereas speculation does not. So a hypothesis is more likely.

So, which is more likely? Speculation or a model composed solely of sustained and untested hypotheses? Which one has more experimental evidence supporting its likelihood? Well, speculation literally has no experimental evidence supporting it, because it doesn't even provide any hypotheses to conduct experiments on. So the hypothetical model is more likely.

So, which is more likely? The speculation that God created life or the hypothetical model of abiogenesis? It's abiogenesis. That's the only correct answer you can have, given everything I have outlined thus far.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
That would be a possible approach for the creation of the universe since we know so much less about it than about the emergence of life. But in the context of this OP naturalism is pretty much established as the only game in town. We have 10 billion years with no need for magic before the emergence of life and 3.8 billion years of no need for magic after the emergence of life. We know about many mechanisms necessary for life from complex structures formed in the Miller-Urey experiment to spontaneous construction of lipid bi-layers near certain clay.
So, in the context of emergence of life, there is no "god hypothesis" that can compete with science.

I like to compare this "immaterialism" to the simulation hypothesis. In fact I made an OP, my first on this site, about it. Are the Programmers Gods?
It makes gods a bit more accessible without taking away any (reasonable) qualities of the un-reality. The "dream" could end when the janitor pulls the plug because he needs the outlet to vacuum the room and we can also ask why the programmers don't seem to mess with the simulation.

Yep. The simulation hypothesis is also unfalsifiable and thus unscientific but it is a valid comparison to immaterialism. Scientists don't like it because it is a creation model and creationists don't like it because it isn't magical and mysterious enough. And when a model pisses off both sides for different reasons, it has some validity to it.
I love that! I'll have to start referencing simulation theory or the similar "mathematical universe" in these conversations when it comes up again. That's brilliant.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
A magical one.

It sounds magical however we want it to have begun.
It is magical to think that the universe came from nothing.
It is magical for order to be the result of chaos.
It is magical for life to come from non life.
It is magical to think that we can be at this point in time yet if there has been an infinite amount of time in the past.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That would be a possible approach for the creation of the universe since we know so much less about it than about the emergence of life. But in the context of this OP naturalism is pretty much established as the only game in town. We have 10 billion years with no need for magic before the emergence of life and 3.8 billion years of no need for magic after the emergence of life. We know about many mechanisms necessary for life from complex structures formed in the Miller-Urey experiment to spontaneous construction of lipid bi-layers near certain clay.
So, in the context of emergence of life, there is no "god hypothesis" that can compete with science.

I like to compare this "immaterialism" to the simulation hypothesis. In fact I made an OP, my first on this site, about it. Are the Programmers Gods?
It makes gods a bit more accessible without taking away any (reasonable) qualities of the un-reality. The "dream" could end when the janitor pulls the plug because he needs the outlet to vacuum the room and we can also ask why the programmers don't seem to mess with the simulation.

Yep. The simulation hypothesis is also unfalsifiable and thus unscientific but it is a valid comparison to immaterialism. Scientists don't like it because it is a creation model and creationists don't like it because it isn't magical and mysterious enough. And when a model pisses off both sides for different reasons, it has some validity to it.

We don't know much about the emergence of life unless we presume that life is no more than material/physical.
The simulation model is similar to the God created it model but there is evidence for a God having visited humanity imo, but no evidence at all for the simulation model.
The simulation model is like last thursdayism in that respect.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
We don't know much about the emergence of life unless we presume that life is no more than material/physical.
The simulation model is similar to the God created it model but there is evidence for a God having visited humanity imo, but no evidence at all for the simulation model.
The simulation model is like last thursdayism in that respect.
I contest that there is evidence for a god having visited Earth but it also isn't important. The simulation model allows for the programmers to tinker with the simulation, so a god is indistinguishable from a programmer and "god's dream" is indistinguishable from the simulation.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.
Maybe the Life Cariers came to our world hundreds of millions of years ago and created primitive life forms, planted them in the shallow briny seas. Those life forms with inherent patterns evolved into life as we know it today.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I contest that there is evidence for a god having visited Earth but it also isn't important. The simulation model allows for the programmers to tinker with the simulation, so a god is indistinguishable from a programmer and "god's dream" is indistinguishable from the simulation.

I suppose simulation theory is just simulators taking the place of a god, but that means that if the simulators aren't god/s then simulation theory just pushes the questions about god/s and a first cause for the simulators, back to their world/realm of existence, and does not eliminate it.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I suppose simulation theory is just simulators taking the place of a god, but that means that if the simulators aren't god/s then simulation theory just pushes the questions about god/s and a first cause for the simulators, back to their world/realm of existence, and does not eliminate it.
It strictly deals with the (first) cause of our universe.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It sounds magical however we want it to have begun.
It is magical to think that the universe came from nothing.
It is magical for order to be the result of chaos.
It is magical for life to come from non life.
It is magical to think that we can be at this point in time yet if there has been an infinite amount of time in the past.

Sorry, no.

Models that don't require the violation and / or suspension of natural laws are not "magical".

"Miracles" and similar supernatural stuff are magical.
Natural processes are not.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
We don't know much about the emergence of life unless we presume that life is no more than material/physical.

We don't need to presume that. It's what the evidence suggests.

Presumptions is what we need to consider ideas that aren't suggested by the evidence.
Like magical supernatural creation events.

The simulation model is similar to the God created it model but there is evidence for a God having visited humanity imo

No, there is no such evidence.
People believing it, is not evidence of it being true.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.
Not dirt, thats a biblical idea.and it is assumed the water from which life "sprang" was clear to allow sunlight.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a "God theory". There isn't even anything that could be called a god hypothesis. The different hypothesis for abiogenesis at least propose a mechanism - the god story just assumes that life was poofed into existence by magic.
Neither the God hypothesis or the Abiogenesis/Evolution hypothesis describe a fully detailed mechanism. The random approach of evolution is bunch of fuzzy dice steps, but not rational details. Fuzzy dice are cover for lack of hard data.

What both, together, do describe is a contrast between two different styles of creation. The Bible God of Creation is more deliberate and works from a plan like building telescope from a box of parts. It may look magical; poof, to the uneducated, as this box of parts becomes something useful. The god of science creation, is more like an idiot savant god who does not have a plan, but is very lucky. He staggers around like a drunk; random walking, and where he periodically falls, something useful happens; poof there are replicators.

In other posts, I have shown how applied science comes before pure science. Experimental apparatus, which derive from applied science, is needed to prove any science theory derived from science. This data has to come first, or it is just speculation. We would not even know about cells, if we did not first have the microscope. That applied science allowed a way to witness the truth from which new science and/or proof of old science theory would emerge.

Microscopes do not violate any natural laws, yet these do not naturally appear in nature from some random approach to science using the laws of nature. Microscopes do not evolve and grow on trees or come from eggs by a series of random steps like is assumed of life. The Microscope uses natural laws, but it very appearance on earth defies the natural odds. They appeared on the earth, through conscious deliberation; observing, rational planning and execution.

One does not build a microscope by playing the lottery a thousand times; science theory of life. The microscope, shows how natural odds can be defied with reason and a plan. This can be demonstrated with applied science over and over. The God theory is actually closer to an applied science approach since it implies something, that is not from natural science, but rather leads science, using primacies than are higher than a lucky god of random falls; many magical poofs!

The Pyramids in Egypt are still considered engineering wonders, that were built at a time before there was modern science. How did such complex construction occur without modern science? Applied science always leads and then pure science appears, as this is reverse engineered, over time. Science still cannot agree on the reverse engineering of the pyramids, that was able to deny all odds based on their science. Explanation tends to drift to Aliens from other planets, with much better tech; applied science to lead the construction.

If we found advanced alien technology, our knowledge of science may not be sufficient to have developed this ourself, nor would we expect the earth to eventually grow this on tress, using the god of random for all the poofs need. We would try to reverse engineer the tech to form our own simpler working applied science prototype, and from these efforts we would start to derive the science, secondary; add what is needed to explain it and make it work.The Bible takes the approach of the applied science coming first; God defies the odds, which when understood, still does not violate natural law, but advances rational science, so the god of alcohol and staggering luck can be retired. He/she is all bruised up.

Water is the key to life; applied science analogy. Water does not change throughout the entire story of life from Abiogenesis to now and the future. The chemical called water; H2O, is a fixed bookend variable that stays chemically the same. The organics do not stay put, but have changed from the beginning and still continue to change; new genes, proteins and structures.

Water is like the applied science of life, with its unchanging nature, limiting itself to the same age old natural laws. The organics are always in flux and have many shapes and forms. Water loads the dice, due to its persist cohabitation and nature. Water is the vector, while the organics are the growing scalar. They work together as a team of opposites. This sort of describes the two gods of creation, with water the the deliberate side of the coin, while the organics the variable side of the coin. The goal of evolution to go where the eternal water potential leads it; loads the dice, like applied science leads pure science.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.
Lol. No.

Life originated via the introduction of water.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe life sprang from dirt 3.5 billion years ago though abiogenesis but I’m beginning to seriously doubt it. The God theory is sounding more and more plausible.
What is the God theory? Why is it more and more plausible? Is there any evidence for it other than confirmation bias? Theories can be tested and falsified. Can God(s) be tested to be true or false? God is a matter of personal belief or opinion. How can you prove or test an opinion?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It is magical to think that the universe came from nothing.

Nope, i know 2 accepted hypothesis describing how a universe can come from nothing. But why do religionists push universe from nothing, i know of 30 accepted hypothesis describing how a universe can come from something. None pf these are ever mentioned by religionists.

It is magical for order to be the result of chaos

What order? Trace movements of the suns, planets, moons and asteroids over thousands or millions of years. Take a look at the quantum field with particles appearing and disappearing at random. Take a look at an atom and observe the electron motion.



It is magical for life to come from non life.

Is it magical that god dun it? It certainly isn't magical for life to emerge from the basic chemicals that were abundant.

It is magical to think that we can be at this point in time yet if there has been an infinite amount of time in the past.
Has time been infinite into the past? Some hypothesis suggest the universe cteated time. Although even at infinite into the past time must have infinite points along the way

No magic needed
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Sorry, no.

Models that don't require the violation and / or suspension of natural laws are not "magical".

"Miracles" and similar supernatural stuff are magical.
Natural processes are not.

Whether the start of life and the universe require magic is not known.
The suspension or violation of natural laws, or changing the natural laws sounds like it could be quite natural if we knew how to do it.
 
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