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Life From Dirt?

Audie

Veteran Member
And the discussion is sort of about subjective evidence for God and how that can be fine for those who use it.
And that really, in what I said, it is subjective (opinion) and not reasonable to say that chemicals could easily just come together and form structures that might later come to life.
The better choice imo is to say a creator set it all up so that these structures were formed. But this is not even a possible choice in the naturalistic methodology of science.
The better explanation for the universe is that
something infinitely bigger, older, and more
complex exists and poofed it all?
And is concerned with foreskins.

Have you no sense of the absurd?

Re " easily" combine, you know no
chemistry.
But two simple con epts for you.

Nothing in biochemistry operates on
unknown principles.

Given the vast pool of conditions, time, and materials
to work with, anything that can happen will
happen.

If you just like to believe things, go for it.

Concocting " evidence" just makes it (you)
look silly.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And if you can't do that with God we either delay belief or say that the lack of objective evidence shows there is no God or we believe anyway on the grounds that God is possible and has subjective evidence for us that we believe.



It's just annoying and indicates a lack of sincerity in what the person says.



But my evidence supports my conclusions for me and why should my beliefs worry you. You don't care if your neighbor wants to dance around a tree in his back yard at midnight baying at the full moon while shaking a stick with a bloody chicken claw nailed to it in order to center himself and to give his like meaning, that's fine as long as he isn't violently insane or sacrificing animals if he keeps the noise down. So me having what I consider good reason to believe in my God does not bother you also I presume even if you don't like my evidence or how I came to the conclusions I did.

The fact that you believe that the evidence? supports is you personal beliefs reflects the problem that you justify a selective interpretation to justify your beliefs. Very very circular.
I don't think Bible believers say that evolution does not happen.
From what little I know, there are gaps in the tree of life and science just presumes evolution fills all the gaps. Science of the gaps.
I don't see the Bible creation story as denying evolution altogether however.
So I don't think that discrediting the Bible creation story is the way to show that the Biblical God does not exist.

Yes,, the polls indicate that 34 to 60% Christian believers reject the sciences of evolution, and believe in a roughly literal Bible, because that is what the writers of the NT believed.
The universe had a beginning in the Bible before the BB theory. The evidence and theory of the BB just confirmed that the Bible was correct.
Faith in the truth and existence of things that we aren't 100% certain about is just part of what humans do, including those who believe the complete science story of evolution.
It's not that easy for chemicals to come together and form the things that need to be formed for life and evolution to begin and continue. It is not proven, it is presumed to have happened the way science might envisage because it had to have happened that way without a creator, with a naturalistic methodology.

Not correct. The current view of science is that our universe may very well did not have a beginning.The current view of the various BB theories is there is ONLT the direct observation of the expansion. of our universe and it is possible cyclic without a beginning. In fact the Hawking/Hertog Theorem proposes a boundless universe without beginning or end.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Where is what I said an ignorant statement, apart from the fact that I don't know what happened and so I am ignorant about it. But neither do you and your opinion on it would be an ignorant statement.
The probability of chemicals joining into cellular structures is imo infinitessimally small.
It does not happen these days even with biological material laying around.
So I have a subjective opinion about it and it seems reasonable to me and to indicate a creator.
That is subjective evidence and we can all see that it is reasonable to call it evidence, but I'm not sure how it can be tested by science except maybe in a probability way.
Your statement demonstrated that you have no understanding of either the concept of logic or the burden of proof..

For example you know nothing of biology so your odds argument fails instantly. You have no ability to even begin to calculate any odds.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yep, it's a subjective interpretation, a leap of faith if you like.
I do not see God when I look around but I see evidence for God. We all see it, but many say it is not evidence. To some people only things testable by science can be called evidence.

I can do both. The problem is that you and I arrive a different God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yep, it's a subjective interpretation, a leap of faith if you like.
I do not see God when I look around but I see evidence for God. We all see it, but many say it is not evidence. To some people only things testable by science can be called evidence.

It is not what I like. It is the bottom line regardless of what you and I believe.

For example I believe in a Universal 'Source' some call God(s), but I realize that there is no evidence to justify my belief. What I believe based on the evidence is that the Ancient tribal Gods as described in the Hebrew, Christian and Islamic scriptures do not exist as described, because they represent ancient cultural tribal views of God in the times they were written.

I advocate the philosophy of Universalism (not UU), which requires a matter of fact independent evaluation of ALL beliefs and religions as they are WITHOUT a personal interpretation. which require a selective personal interpretation to justify the belief.

My conclusion is that the basis for human belief is dominated by the desire for a 'Sense of Community and Identity,' which is mostly based one's heritage.

The stronger people believe that their ancient belief is the true and only belief the more likely it is a highly flawed belief.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It can be rational. It certainly is not irrational, just not a belief determined purely as a reasoned thing and considering all the evidence on some sort of rationality scales that we have inside us. Maybe it is a leap of faith after considering the evidence, just as a leap of faith would be to say that the evidence is not enough to show there is a god.
How so? You keep forgetting that you have already refuted yourself when it comes to claims like this. By the way, the use of faith is an admission that you are not reasoning rationally
"More rational belief" sounds like a subjective thing in this case.


That is only because you refuse to learn what rational thought is in the first place.
It is just obvious that the chemistry does not fall together and hold together or that the conditions would be very rare indeed. It sounds obvious that any science that says chemicals can combine into life forms without precise conditions and incredible luck etc is not telling the whole story.
But that sort of inane argument from ignorance is what you have to deal with when it comes to theists. Can you deal with it without just waving your hand and dismissing it?


Really? You do not realize that you once again put the burden of proof upon yourself. If it is obvious that means that the evidence is clear. Yet you do not have any evidence. You refuse to even try to learn the subject.


How about an inane question like--- how does the genetic system of evolution evolve without the genetic system of evolution first being there?
Yes, that is an inane question on your part. It tells us how little that you know.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yep, it's a subjective interpretation, a leap of faith if you like.
I do not see God when I look around but I see evidence for God. We all see it, but many say it is not evidence. To some people only things testable by science can be called evidence.
Oh, it's evidence all right.

Seeing three ravens at dawn
is evidence. Of what?

Europe is littered with evidence of the
glaciation of the ice age.

It was not much over a hundred yrs ago
that it was recognized for what it is.

Before that people saw the hand of god,
lots of " flood" sign.

The actually unevidenced, ignorant thing to see.

Note plz that your understanding of basic science
near absolute zero.

And since I said I'd point them out when you
make things up..

Your two statements of what " some people" do
are examples

And, btw, arguing against unidentified / possibly
nonexistent people is poor quality rhetoric.
 
Last edited:

Audie

Veteran Member
I can detect it when I am getting fanciful in the opinion of atheists/skeptics, and I don't apologise and I probably have done it on purpose.
Of course I have the opinion that a God is real and that a God doing things that have not been shown to be even possible (magic things we could say), is better than to say that these things (the magic things )just happened without any planning or help.
And even if I did not think that a God is real, my reasoning is probably alright as an argument for God.
That is subjective and so I suppose you would not agree.
So you make things up and don't even know when you are doing it.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Objective means making an unbiased, balanced observation based on facts which can be verified. Subjective means making assumptions, making interpretations based on personal opinions without any verifiable facts. Objective observations or assessments can be used before arriving at any decisions.
What is left out from this analysis are the foundation premises behind the procedures of reason. This full method requires foundation premises and assumptions, data and logic. This applies to any stage of science, most of which are now obsolete due to flawed foundation premises that were then replaced.

Galileo had data, that he shared that contradicted the conceptual foundation of middle age thinking; flat earth. He was consider a heretic by some; subjective trouble maker. All the data, that had been previously observed had been consistent with the flat earth premise, which was assumed an absolute given. The problem was the old foundation could not logically support this new data the correct way. This made the former objective consensus, subjective, which nobody saw coming, since they assumed their foundation for logic, was flawless,

What we assume to be self evident truth; accepted theory; BB or evolution, impacts how we will reason with the new and old available data. For example, the Russian Collusion Coup in the US politics, seemed to logically lead to that conclusion based on false starting premises and bad data. If you resisted those logical conclusions of the consensus, you were called subjective, even though the test of time would say you were among the few who were actually being rational and objective.

Say we are going to bake two cakes. We buy the ingredients from the market using two different product lines of ingredients. In both cases, we follow the procedures the exact same way; logic procedures. But since one set of the same ingredients is fresher, the cake comes out better, after everything is baked. Logical procedure; mixing and baking is only part of the equation. Data is another part; ingredients, while a better foundation premise is another; same but fresh ingredients.

The Casino science approach to life is half baked. It needs dice and cards to account for water, without including water in any logical way. However, if you stay with these stale ingredients and logically bake them, you can still make a cake, but not as good as it should be. This can trick the temporal mind who will call subjective, objective, simply because it followed the rules of logic; 1/3 flawless.

DNA does not work in any solvent besides water. It evolved in water and formed an intimate relationship with water that cannot be achieved with any other solvent. Water, DNA and Protein all have hydrogen bonding in common, with the hydrogen bonding of water coming first before the others learned to share this common feature. Why is water not given more of a central role, along with the DNA and protein since the DNA and protein is dead in the water without water, while water has many other things it do, all by itself? Water is not a one trick pony. Water can make lightning, glaciers, hurricanes and life. The current casino science theory is a yesterday's bread; conceptual foundation. It is not fresh but it can still be toasted with an oracle to make good garlic toast.

It is a wonder nobody teaches about the affect of conceptual foundations on the output of sound logic. My guess is too many scams depend on this not being known. If you wish to open your eyes, crawl into the subbasements of knowledge, and look at the conceptual foundations to see if there are cracks. Casino science cracks should be easy to see. Statistics was a tool that became a religion; whims of the gods.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What is left out from this analysis are the foundation premises behind the procedures of reason. This full method requires foundation premises and assumptions, data and logic. This applies to any stage of science, most of which are now obsolete due to flawed foundation premises that were then replaced.

Galileo had data, that he shared that contradicted the conceptual foundation of middle age thinking; flat earth. He was consider a heretic by some; subjective trouble maker. All the data, that had been previously observed had been consistent with the flat earth premise, which was assumed an absolute given. The problem was the old foundation could not logically support this new data the correct way. This made the former objective consensus, subjective, which nobody saw coming, since they assumed their foundation for logic, was flawless,

What we assume to be self evident truth; accepted theory; BB or evolution, impacts how we will reason with the new and old available data. For example, the Russian Collusion Coup in the US politics, seemed to logically lead to that conclusion based on false starting premises and bad data. If you resisted those logical conclusions of the consensus, you were called subjective, even though the test of time would say you were among the few who were actually being rational and objective.

Say we are going to bake two cakes. We buy the ingredients from the market using two different product lines of ingredients. In both cases, we follow the procedures the exact same way; logic procedures. But since one set of the same ingredients is fresher, the cake comes out better, after everything is baked. Logical procedure; mixing and baking is only part of the equation. Data is another part; ingredients, while a better foundation premise is another; same but fresh ingredients.

The Casino science approach to life is half baked. It needs dice and cards to account for water, without including water in any logical way. However, if you stay with these stale ingredients and logically bake them, you can still make a cake, but not as good as it should be. This can trick the temporal mind who will call subjective, objective, simply because it followed the rules of logic; 1/3 flawless.

DNA does not work in any solvent besides water. It evolved in water and formed an intimate relationship with water that cannot be achieved with any other solvent. Water, DNA and Protein all have hydrogen bonding in common, with the hydrogen bonding of water coming first before the others learned to share this common feature. Why is water not given more of a central role, along with the DNA and protein since the DNA and protein is dead in the water without water, while water has many other things it do, all by itself? Water is not a one trick pony. Water can make lightning, glaciers, hurricanes and life. The current casino science theory is a yesterday's bread; conceptual foundation. It is not fresh but it can still be toasted with an oracle to make good garlic toast.

It is a wonder nobody teaches about the affect of conceptual foundations on the output of sound logic. My guess is too many scams depend on this not being known. If you wish to open your eyes, crawl into the subbasements of knowledge, and look at the conceptual foundations to see if there are cracks. Casino science cracks should be easy to see. Statistics was a tool that became a religion; whims of the gods.

Good post!

My comment on statistics is that it is indeed misused and misrepresented for selfish reasons. Statistics primary use is intended for testing research. Simply.


Statistics in research deals with basics in statistics that provides statistical randomness and law of using large samples. Statistics teaches how choosing a sample size from a random large pool of sample helps extrapolate statistical findings and reduce experimental bias and errors.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I might say that it's a warm day and that is my subjective opinion about a temperature that can be objectively verified, but someone else might say it is cool in their opinion. So each of the opinions are subjective evidence.
Evidence of what? That one needs a sweater and the other doesn't? This seems to be the basis of the god belief in many - subjective experience. Just as the warm person has no need for a sweater, the atheist has no need for a god belief.
And if you can't do that [obtain sufficient evidence to justify belief] with God we either delay belief or say that the lack of objective evidence shows there is no God or we believe anyway on the grounds that God is possible and has subjective evidence for us that we believe.
That pretty well sums up the three logical possibilities available - say gods exist based on the available evidence, say they don't based on the same evidence, or say neither.
why should my beliefs worry you
Your beliefs don't worry me.
So me having what I consider good reason to believe in my God does not bother you also I presume even if you don't like my evidence or how I came to the conclusions I did.
Correct. Why would I mind? Your god belief doesn't impact my life except to serve as a topic of discussion on RF, which is a positive impact, since I enjoy this activity.
I don't see the Bible creation story as denying evolution altogether however.
Why do you think that matters to the discussion? The biblical and scientific narratives overlap in some places and are contradictory (mutually exclusive) in others. It seems you prefer to focus on the former, but it's the latter that rules out the god of Abraham.
I don't think that discrediting the Bible creation story is the way to show that the Biblical God does not exist.
I could have predicted that. I also predict that you cannot argue that position or rebut my original argument that the existing evidence for evolution rules that god out even if the theory were ever falsified. I understand that you are unwilling and unprepared to look at that argument dispassionately and open-mindedly, evaluate it for soundness, and successfully rebut it if it contains an error of fact or reasoning, but hopefully you understand that that means that your opinion above has no value except to you and others trying to defend biblical creationism.
Faith in the truth and existence of things that we aren't 100% certain about is just part of what humans do
I don't have any known unjustified beliefs. One can learn to think critically at all times, which prevents accumulating faith-based (unsound) beliefs. I rank it among the most valuable things I have learned to do. One doesn't need 100% certainty to act, but that doesn't make one's beliefs or choices unjustified. My car has started the last several hundred times it was tested, but in the past, it sometimes hasn't. I turn the key expecting it likely to start, but it doesn't. The battery is dead. Do you think unjustified belief (religious-type faith) was part of that? I say religious-type faith because that is what I mean by unjustified belief. As you know, some use the word faith to mean justified belief as well, such as my belief that the car would probably start, but I never do for obvious reasons, the same reason I wouldn't call two daughters Faith.

Ambiguity like that can lead to an equivocation fallacy, which occurs when two different meanings of a word are used interchangeably, as when one is told that banks are a good place to keep money, and that rivers have banks. I think that's what you're doing with the word faith when you imply we all have some - conflating justified and unjustified belief.
It's not that easy for chemicals to come together and form the things that need to be formed for life and evolution to begin and continue.
The factors required for life to arise and evolve coming together on some planet or moon occur on far fewer than 10% of these natural satellites, but our own solar system has several candidate worlds for life past, present, and future. Mars looks like it had life, but if so, probably never got past the unicellular stage. Why? It wasn't massive enough to contain a hot core long enough for multicellular life to evolve, which meant that it lost its magnetic field, its oceans, and its atmosphere. Enceladus and Europa may have subsurface life in ice-encrusted oceans now, and Titan may support life when it warms in the future as the sun heats and expands.

Life forming is the first hurdle. Evolving to phototrophs and multicellular animals that reduce oxygen is another, evolving consciousness and intellect (language, civilization, and technology) another, and surviving that another.

The story of how that happened on earth is fascinating. Mars-sized Theia impacted the proto-earth at just the right angle to give it the mass and iron content necessary to sustain a magnetic field for billions of years, and to give the resulting earth a large, single satellite needed to stabilize its axial tilt and thus climate by latitude (we don't want the poles pointing toward the sun some of the time). Jupiter wandered and set off the late heavy asteroidal bombardment, which delivered oceans and volatiles to the inner solar system including earth.
You cannot say where I went wrong if indeed what I post is subjective evidence for God to me. You can say that it is not good evidence for you.
Wrong in this context means in violation of the rules of critical thought. If those aren't your rules, you won't find conclusions they reject wrong for yourself, but if so, you have a private method of connecting evidence to conclusions that the academic community considers unjustified.
"More rational belief" sounds like a subjective thing in this case.
But it's not. The rules of proper reasoning are not subjective. Those who bring their own ways of processing information to the matter, arrive at different conclusions, and say that they are supported by that process are being subjective.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Buddha said 'do not believe upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna), .. unless you get proof for that'.
By scripture, I am pretty certain that Buddha meant any scripture. ? Not just the Bible. Right? I can tell you more about what the Bible says about this, there are plenty of biblical scriptures pertaining to the fact that when a person (or animal) dies, the soul (Hebrew 'nephesh') dies, because while alive we ARE living souls. When dead, we are dead souls. Life is integrated with soul.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I can do both. The problem is that you and I arrive a different God.
There is a most high God. That is evident to me, along with what the Bible says, from what we see around us, i.e. the sky, the universe, the laws of the universe and life. More personally, Joshua 22:22 says to the Israelites:
"The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)" (King James Version)
So the God that was specifically working with them is also known as God of gods. He is above all others called a god.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
There is a most high God. That is evident to me, along with what the Bible says, from what we see around us, i.e. the sky, the universe, the laws of the universe and life. More personally, Joshua 22:22 says to the Israelites:
"The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)" (King James Version)
So the God that was specifically working with them is also known as God of gods. He is above all others called a god.

Yeah, we have faith in different Gods.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
By scripture, I am pretty certain that Buddha meant any scripture. ? Not just the Bible. Right? I can tell you more about what the Bible says about this, there are plenty of biblical scriptures pertaining to the fact that when a person (or animal) dies, the soul (Hebrew 'nephesh') dies, because while alive we ARE living souls. When dead, we are dead souls. Life is integrated with soul.
Yes you have no evidence for that. Or at the very least you have never been able to provide any evidence. When all you have are unsupported claims you end up refuting yourself.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There is a most high God. That is evident to me, along with what the Bible says, from what we see around us, i.e. the sky, the universe, the laws of the universe and life. More personally, Joshua 22:22 says to the Israelites:
"The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)" (King James Version)
So the God that was specifically working with them is also known as God of gods. He is above all others called a god.
Again, I do not think that you understand what the word "evident" means You are misusing that word. Evidence would mean that there is evidence for it and yet you can never provide any.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What is left out from this analysis are the foundation premises behind the procedures of reason. This full method requires foundation premises and assumptions, data and logic. This applies to any stage of science, most of which are now obsolete due to flawed foundation premises that were then replaced.

Galileo had data, that he shared that contradicted the conceptual foundation of middle age thinking; flat earth. He was consider a heretic by some; subjective trouble maker. All the data, that had been previously observed had been consistent with the flat earth premise, which was assumed an absolute given. The problem was the old foundation could not logically support this new data the correct way. This made the former objective consensus, subjective, which nobody saw coming, since they assumed their foundation for logic, was flawless,

What we assume to be self evident truth; accepted theory; BB or evolution, impacts how we will reason with the new and old available data. For example, the Russian Collusion Coup in the US politics, seemed to logically lead to that conclusion based on false starting premises and bad data. If you resisted those logical conclusions of the consensus, you were called subjective, even though the test of time would say you were among the few who were actually being rational and objective.

Say we are going to bake two cakes. We buy the ingredients from the market using two different product lines of ingredients. In both cases, we follow the procedures the exact same way; logic procedures. But since one set of the same ingredients is fresher, the cake comes out better, after everything is baked. Logical procedure; mixing and baking is only part of the equation. Data is another part; ingredients, while a better foundation premise is another; same but fresh ingredients.

The Casino science approach to life is half baked. It needs dice and cards to account for water, without including water in any logical way. However, if you stay with these stale ingredients and logically bake them, you can still make a cake, but not as good as it should be. This can trick the temporal mind who will call subjective, objective, simply because it followed the rules of logic; 1/3 flawless.

DNA does not work in any solvent besides water. It evolved in water and formed an intimate relationship with water that cannot be achieved with any other solvent. Water, DNA and Protein all have hydrogen bonding in common, with the hydrogen bonding of water coming first before the others learned to share this common feature. Why is water not given more of a central role, along with the DNA and protein since the DNA and protein is dead in the water without water, while water has many other things it do, all by itself? Water is not a one trick pony. Water can make lightning, glaciers, hurricanes and life. The current casino science theory is a yesterday's bread; conceptual foundation. It is not fresh but it can still be toasted with an oracle to make good garlic toast.

It is a wonder nobody teaches about the affect of conceptual foundations on the output of sound logic. My guess is too many scams depend on this not being known. If you wish to open your eyes, crawl into the subbasements of knowledge, and look at the conceptual foundations to see if there are cracks. Casino science cracks should be easy to see. Statistics was a tool that became a religion; whims of the gods.
Who " assumes self evident truth " re science,
let alone any theory ?

You are describing an unknown, probably
non existent idiot.

Talk about flawed premises
 
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