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Life From Dirt?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
perhaps you haven't found your inner voice to be in error but I have
Agreed. The little man inside (intuition) isn't reliable. Seinfeld covered this. Kramer advises George, "You’ve got to listen to the little man." George disagrees (4 second video)

falsifiability is a method which only really applies to the natural sciences
Falsifiability isn't a method. It's a quality that a claim might or might not possess, and it applies to all questions of truth, including questions about gods and souls. Unfalsifiable claims aren't worth considering. They refer to irrelevant hypothetical objects and processes, irrelevant because they cannot affect our experience or reality.

We imagine a world outside of consciousness (objective reality, noumenal reality, ding an sich) which modifies our conscious content (subjective reality, phenomenal reality), and we can imagine that it also contains items that do not do that - that don't impact the theater of consciousness directly or even indirectly. This is what it means to be insensible and untestable - the inability to modify conscious content and produce an apprehension that demonstrates that a claim is false. You can safely stop thinking about such things for obvious reasons.

Think of Plato's cave (the theater of consciousness). We can imagine objects outside of the cave casting shadows. The object moves and so does the shadow. We can imagine somebody just outside the cave entrance who does not cast shadows into the cave where he stands, but he's the one moving the object casting shadows, and so affects the show on the cave wall indirectly. Now imagine somebody a mile away, who cannot modify the shadow show. The claim he exists is unfalsifiable and irrelevant.

The faithful want it both ways. They want to tell us about undetectable gods in undetectable spaces, and to not bother looking for them with nervous systems, even those aided by machines, because all of that only applies to science, and has no power in this other domain. Yet they claim to have somehow sensed these things anyway. You've been talking about looking for and finding a soul using your material nervous system to detect it. And I bet you'd like to call the claim of the soul's existence unfalsifiable but still valid. That's wanting to have it both ways - detectible for you, but not to scientists.
There is no evidence that shows evolution the theory of to be true.
The theory is correct beyond reasonable doubt. It's settled science. There is no debate about whether its central tenets are correct. They are. There's dissent among creationists, but that's irrelevant. The scientists aren't listening. Why would they? But don't feel offended. It's not because the dissenters are creationists or because they disagree. It's because they aren't a part of the community of experts on the topic - the only people with a voice in the discussion. The scientists also don't care about lay people (including those posting here) who happen to agree with them.
The fact is there (1) is no proof of evolution
Evolution occurs. It's a proven fact. And we know how and why it occurs beyond reasonable doubt. It isn't necessary that you know that or agree with it, nor is it possible for you to learn it if you resist learning. Learning is a cooperative effort between a teacher and student, and cannot occur without the student's cooperation. A person will not learn what he has a stake in not understanding. Putting yourself in that position and then declaring that you don't see the evidence is not a counterargument.
evidence is construed to piece into the theory.
The evidence confirms the theory. There is no other way to interpret it unless there exists a deceptive superhuman intelligence that has been to earth to deceive man by planting all of the evidence that presently supports the theory. Eventually, the only two ways to interpret it are that things are as the evidence suggests or there's been fraud, as with the police planting evidence that, if not planted, would confirm guilt. That's where we are with evolution now. It happened or there's been fraud.
The energy giving life didn't just emerge from a chemical by chance meeting.
The first life in the universe arose through naturalistic processes requiring no intelligent oversight, and new life is created continually with nobody assembling cells, tissues, or organs.
You confuse function with truth. And thus you lie to yourself by thinking that if a theory functions, it must be the truth.
You lie to yourself thinking that you can discover demonstrably correct ideas about the world through any other path than empiricism. You've never done it. Nor have I. Nobody has.
This is the fatal flaw of scientism.
Eliminating faith, superstition, and received "wisdom" led to the stellar success of science. The flaw is inventing unfalsifiable stories that add nothing to knowledge and calling it truth.
Real scientists are careful not to make this mistake, but the scientism crowd
What you call the scientism crowd are the skeptics, empiricists, and critical thinkers of the world, which includes what you call real scientists.
Lies work so well that people will even lie to themselves. What works has very little to do with what is true.
That is about as incorrect as a statement can be.
Then [science] is not a fountain of truth, is it.
Empiricism is the only "fountain" that generates correct ideas. Other "magisteria" are sterile. Other "ways of knowing" produce nothing of value. Faith is not a path to knowledge.

That's a falsifiable statement. If it's wrong, it can be shown to be wrong. It can be falsified by presenting a correct idea about the world developed nonempirically. If the claim is correct, it cannot. Good luck. Take all the time you need.
 
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Astrophile

Active Member
Why do you think the Almighty God must be composed of atoms? We can't even understand our own bodies, how they are formed (please don't get started). Much less to figure out about God except what He tells us...through creation and the Bible.
We may not understand our own bodies, but we do know that they, and all the living things that we know of, consist of atoms, and that the processes of life (e.g. growth, movement, perception, communication, emotion, and thought) involve interactions between atoms. It is therefore reasonable to infer that consisting of atoms is a necessary condition for something to be alive, and to ask how something that does not consist of atoms can be said to be alive.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Science is not about proof. But that is your bias against science.
Yes, I know that's what you say. But since it's conjecture and application of smallpox vaccine proves that it works, again -- everything you assert about the truth of evolution is pure hogwash. No proof. Nothing. Zilch. You can decide what you want, obviously. I have decided. No proof, the so-called evidence you and others claim "proves" the theory just isn't so. Have a nice one.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We may not understand our own bodies, but we do know that they, and all the living things that we know of, consist of atoms, and that the processes of life (e.g. growth, movement, perception, communication, emotion, and thought) involve interactions between atoms. It is therefore reasonable to infer that consisting of atoms is a necessary condition for something to be alive, and to ask how something that does not consist of atoms can be said to be alive.
Yeah they consist of atoms but that doesn't mean even in conjecture that God is made up of atoms. Even if you push evolution, your atomic theory is ridiculous. Anyway, have a good day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, both of those are falsehoods.

There is plenty of evidence for evolution, from genetics, to paleontology, to actual observations of mutation and selection, to computer modeling, etc. The evidence is spread across every species we have tested. That many ignore evidence or refuse to see how it is evidence doesn't negate that fact.

And no, we also seek evidence that would limit the theory or show it to be false. Unlike a religious idea, scientific ideas have to be testable and attempts have to be made to show them *wrong*. If those attempts repeatedly fail (and all attempts to show evolution wrong have failed), we gain confidence in the ideas.
No, genetics does not "evidence" evolution. What it "evidences" is that there is motion and cohesiveness and ability to combine. But it does not evidence or prove (evidence as if it's true) evolution. Keep it up, guys and gals because what you have proven (yup, proven) to me beyond doubt is that evolution just isn't as you all claim it is. Bye for now....so glad to have met you all and hope for good things for you. Take care.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, genetics does not "evidence" evolution. What it "evidences" is that there is motion and cohesiveness and ability to combine. But it does not evidence or prove (evidence as if it's true) evolution. Keep it up, guys and gals because what you have proven (yup, proven) to me beyond doubt is that evolution just isn't as you all claim it is. Bye for now....so glad to have met you all and hope for good things for you. Take care.
That is false and your own actions show that you know that this is the case. There are standards for what is and what is not evidence. It holds the feet of people that cannot be honest with themselves to the fire. The evidence for evolution meets those standards.

So how do we know that even you know that you are wrong? You demonstrate it with your fear and refusal to discuss the concept of evidence and why certain observations are evidence. When you run away from a reasonable discussion you are telling others that you know that you are wrong.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
No, genetics does not "evidence" evolution. What it "evidences" is that there is motion and cohesiveness and ability to combine.
Huh? It shows how traits gets passed from one generation to the next. It shows how traits can change over generations. It gives evidence of gene duplication, mutation, new characteristics, etc. It shows the raw material for evolution. It allows for timing of changes in the genetic lines, it allows for timing of when species split, it allows us to determine what genetic changes correlate with the body changes we see in the fossil record, etc.
But it does not evidence or prove (evidence as if it's true) evolution.
Absolutely it does. It shows how genetic traits change over generations, how new capabilities arise, allows for timing of certain splits in populations, shows the relatedness of different species, etc. ALL of this points towards evolution.
Keep it up, guys and gals because what you have proven (yup, proven) to me beyond doubt is that evolution just isn't as you all claim it is. Bye for now....so glad to have met you all and hope for good things for you. Take care.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, I know that's what you say. But since it's conjecture and application of smallpox vaccine proves that it works, again -- everything you assert about the truth of evolution is pure hogwash. No proof. Nothing. Zilch. You can decide what you want, obviously. I have decided. No proof, the so-called evidence you and others claim "proves" the theory just isn't so. Have a nice one.

We know that genetics changes over time. We know that the changes that occur can and do lead to new traits. We can watch natural selection in action in some populations. Sine such genetics changes *are* evolution, we can actually detect evolution in action in the lab.

I'm curious what you think evolution is if you reject the evidence from genetics that it happens.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Huh? It shows how traits gets passed from one generation to the next. It shows how traits can change over generations. It gives evidence of gene duplication, mutation, new characteristics, etc. It shows the raw material for evolution.
Nope. Not true. Passing on of traits do not constitute evolution as in the theory of changing forms, such as fish eventually supposedly becoming humans. Nope, sorry to inform you of this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
We know that genetics changes over time. We know that the changes that occur can and do lead to new traits. We can watch natural selection in action in some populations. Sine such genetics changes *are* evolution, we can actually detect evolution in action in the lab.

I'm curious what you think evolution is if you reject the evidence from genetics that it happens.
Humans pass on genetic composition due to male and female mating. (usually) They make, um, humans. There is simply, absolutely no proof (ok evidence for you) that there is an "Unknown Common Ancestor" burgeoning out to eventually morph to become gorillas, chimpanzees and humans. Not one shred. Not a hair. Nothing. Zilch. Sorry.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Humans pass on genetic composition due to male and female mating. (usually) They make, um, humans. There is simply, absolutely no proof (ok evidence for you) that there is an "Unknown Common Ancestor" burgeoning out to eventually morph to become gorillas, chimpanzees and humans. Not one shred. Not a hair. Nothing. Zilch. Sorry.
Sorry, but there is. You simply have no idea what evidence or proof is.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope. Not true. Passing on of traits do not constitute evolution as in the theory of changing forms, such as fish eventually supposedly becoming humans. Nope, sorry to inform you of this.

Sorry, but passing on *mutations* and gaining *new* traits *is* evolution. As long as that can happen, the 'fish to man' types of change happen automatically over many more generations.

Humans pass on genetic composition due to male and female mating. (usually) They make, um, humans. There is simply, absolutely no proof (ok evidence for you) that there is an "Unknown Common Ancestor" burgeoning out to eventually morph to become gorillas, chimpanzees and humans. Not one shred. Not a hair. Nothing. Zilch. Sorry.

Humans, gorillas, and chimps are all apes. So that ape that was a common ancestor stayed an ape. The population just split into the populations of humans, chimps, and gorillas. Furthermore, the genetics of the three species shows that common ancestry. The fossile record also supports this type of transition.

So you are wrong at each point.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry, but passing on *mutations* and gaining *new* traits *is* evolution. As long as that can happen, the 'fish to man' types of change happen automatically over many more generations.



Humans, gorillas, and chimps are all apes.

So you and others say. That doesn't make it true, by the way.
So that ape that was a common ancestor stayed an ape. The population just split into the populations of humans, chimps, and gorillas. Furthermore, the genetics of the three species shows that common ancestry. The fossile record also supports this type of transition.

So you are wrong at each point.
No, I'm not. Meantime, aside from me not being wrong at "each point," there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that some "Unknown Common Ancestor" burgeoned into gorillas, humans, chimpanzees, etc. None -- As far as fossil records, again -- while grass may be green and lizards also may be green, there is not one iota of evidence that gorillas, chimpanzees and humans evolved from some "Unknown Common Ancestor." You can't prove it, of course, NOT EVEN WITH EVIDENCE. Because there IS NONE. whatsoever.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So you and others say. That doesn't make it true, by the way.

No, I'm not. Meantime, aside from me not being wrong at "each point," there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that some "Unknown Common Ancestor" burgeoned into gorillas, humans, chimpanzees, etc. None -- As far as fossil records, again -- while grass may be green and lizards also may be green, there is not one iota of evidence that gorillas, chimpanzees and humans evolved from some "Unknown Common Ancestor." You can't prove it, of course, NOT EVEN WITH EVIDENCE. Because there IS NONE. whatsoever.
Yelling does not make it true. You have been given evidence. All that you can do is to deny it. It is such a pity that so many creationists do not understand the concept of "bearing false witness against your neighbor". The Bible tells them not to do that, but they seem to think that there is an "lying for Jesus" escape clause from that Commandment.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
No, The point is that NO conception of God makes sense to me. And I don't have a 'need to believe' that requires me to search until I find a nonsense answer.

Frankly, if it isn't about truth, and thereby about making accurate predictions, it makes no sense. 'hope fulfilled through positive vision and action' isn't meaningful/plausible to me.
Therein lies the issue; your predetermined attitude and position. You have already made up your mind there is no God and any response or answer you may receive, if you bothered to search, would be nonsense. Why should God reveal anything to you? You have no desire to know the truth of His existence.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Jesus was self-deluded. I don't know whether he actually expected to die or not. I suspect he didn't. But he did, in fact, die.
No, Jesus was not deluded. He was in perfect control of His life and events leading to His crucifixion. Of course He knew He would die. His whole purpose in coming to earth, becoming human…was to go to the cross to pay for the sins of the world.

…Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. John 10:17-18
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Therein lies the issue; your predetermined attitude and position. You have already made up your mind there is no God and any response or answer you may receive, if you bothered to search, would be nonsense. Why should God reveal anything to you? You have no desire to know the truth of His existence.
If I may, I would like to say something here. Although many are set to deny creation it is in part what I perceive as creation for me to believe in God, a (the) Creator. There are other reasons NOW (I was not always a believer) but I just wanted to say about the miracle of life as I see it NOW. :)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Where am I proposing that?

In post 1539:

There is one test that is available to each of us. Search honestly within yourself; keep an open mind and and an open heart, bypass the ego, silence the chattering monkey-mind, abandon yourself to whatever conception of God makes sense to you. Seek, and ye shall find.

And when I pointed out that that sounds like self-brainwashing, you doubled down and confirmed it in post 1561:

In other words, you can't trust your own heart and mind to tell you what's real and what's unreal?


So yes, it is exactly what you are proposing... to not bother with testing and just (in your very own words) "abandon yourself" to "whatever makes sense to you".

That's doing exactly what I said: going with whatever "sounds nice"
 
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