Life Without Belief

[mikkel_the_dane]

You know well that I don't do philosophy and guesswork, woo and mumbojumbo is irrelevant to me.
The scientific method has been around for a few centuries, is my input realty required just because you don't like it?

Well, you are a product of nature and nurture like the rest of us. So you can believe like you like. But if you claim knowledge, you have to show how it works and not just claim it.

 

[blü 2]

Yeah, the problem is that parts of you are subjective, yet you are in the objective universe, right?

You call it a problem.

I call it a good start.

So I am the only mind, right?

Well, there might be more than one view of that.

Anything not in my mind is objective

Or is imaginary or purely conceptual, but imagined or held in someone else's head. Like Superman in relation to people who've never heard of Superman.

since you are not in my mind and subjective, you are not real. In effect you don't exist, because I am the only mind.

I continue to think there might be more than one view of that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You call it a problem.

I call it a good start.
Well, there might be more than one view of that.
Or is imaginary or purely conceptual, but imagined or held in someone else's head. Like Superman in relation to people who've never heard of Superman.
I continue to think there might be more than one view of that.

I don't care what you think. That is subjective and thus unreal! Please report to the reality authority and get your brain fixed.

 

[blü 2]

I don't care what you think. That is subjective and thus unreal! Please report to the reality authority and get your brain fixed.

Ah, there's your confusion ─ you get the subjective and the unreal muddled up!

But never mind. If you don't think it matters, then I dare say to you it doesn't matter.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ah, there's your confusion ─ you get the subjective and the unreal muddled up!

But never mind. If you don't think it matters, then I dare say to you it doesn't matter.

No, I am real. You are not. I am so objective and rational that I am not subjective at all. Subjectivity is bad and that is objective, because I say so. What I say, is real, rational and objective. And if you disagree, you are not in reality, because you are so unreal, that you are not in reality.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Do you think it is possible to live without any beliefs what so ever?

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The word belief is always a problem in these discussions, since we seem to mean different things by the word. Some consider it an alternative to knowledge - "I don't know so, but I believe so." To me, my beliefs are the collection of ideas I consider true, what I would call my knowledge of reality, or my mental map of reality, when those beliefs are considered collectively. Facts are not different from beliefs by this reckoning, but rather, what I call facts are those beliefs that I hold most firmly and consider least likely to be incorrect.

By that reckoning, even the most disciplined and rigorous critical thinker has a head full of beliefs, all of which have been confirmed to be valid empirically, since he rejects insufficiently supported beliefs, and so, my answer to your question is no, unless we include being in a coma, in which case it is possible to live without beliefs or even consciousness.

This is why I shudder whenever I see somebody say that the atheist claims he has no beliefs. No they don't. They claim to have no god belief. All other beliefs are possible, and if the atheist is a critical thinker and rejects other faith-based beliefs as well, all of those other beliefs he doesn't reject will be rational.

The atheist never claims to have no beliefs, just no god belief, and no beliefs derived from atheism. His worldview, which is typically secular humanism, comes from his reasoning and moral faculties, not his atheism. Conscience tells him to follow the Golden Rule, not unbelief in gods. His understanding of how the world works comes from his experience in the world, not unbelief in gods. His commitment to empiricism and skepticism also do not come from his atheism. None of it does. But that doesn't mean that there are no beliefs for the atheist.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Neither belief nor disbelief guarantees anything.

But if people can live without belief (OP) than this also is false.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The word belief is always a problem in these discussions, since we seem to mean different things by the word. Some consider it an alternative to knowledge - "I don't know so, but I believe so." To me, my beliefs are the collection of ideas I consider true, what I would call my knowledge of reality, or my mental map of reality, when those beliefs are considered collectively. Facts are not different from beliefs by this reckoning, but rather, what I call facts are those beliefs that I hold most firmly and consider least likely to be incorrect.

By that reckoning, even the most disciplined and rigorous critical thinker has a head full of beliefs, all of which have been confirmed to be valid empirically, since he rejects insufficiently supported beliefs, and so, my answer to your question is no, unless we include being in a coma, in which case it is possible to live without beliefs or even consciousness.

This is why I shudder whenever I see somebody say that the atheist claims he has no beliefs. No they don't. They claim to have no god belief. All other beliefs are possible, and if the atheist is a critical thinker and rejects other faith-based beliefs as well, all of those other beliefs he doesn't reject will be rational.

The atheist never claims to have no beliefs, just no god belief, and no beliefs derived from atheism. His worldview, which is typically secular humanism, comes from his reasoning and moral faculties, not his atheism. Conscience tells him to follow the Golden Rule, not unbelief in gods. His understanding of how the world works comes from his experience in the world, not unbelief in gods. His commitment to empiricism and skepticism also do not come from his atheism. None of it does. But that doesn't mean that there are no beliefs for the atheist.

Well, to me all of these are washout evidence:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

So to me empiricism is limited and skepticism is a negative methodology.

 

[firedragon]

I don't care what you think. That is subjective and thus unreal! Please report to the reality authority and get your brain fixed.

You and your subjectivity. Hahaha.

But, not knowing your background, philosophically you do make a hell of a lot of sense. I would like to really tell you your position though you might tell me "that is also subjective".

Please dont kill me k.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You and your subjectivity. Hahaha.

But, not knowing your background, philosophically you do make a hell of a lot of sense. I would like to really tell you your position though you might tell me "that is also subjective".

Please dont kill me k.

Well, not today. The wife has cancer and I only do drive by shooting right now. I am not up for going deep into philosophy right now. Check in if you remember in say half a year and give me a PM.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well, not today. The wife has cancer and I only do drive by shooting right now. I am not up for going deep into philosophy right now. Check in if you remember in say half a year and give me a PM.

Best wishes - and prayers - to you and your wife.

 

[firedragon]

Well, not today. The wife has cancer and I only do drive by shooting right now. I am not up for going deep into philosophy right now. Check in if you remember in say half a year and give me a PM.

I wish your wife the recovery of a lifetime. And I wish you both one of the most satisfying lives anyone could lead. I wish you cherish every moment. All the love.

XX

 

[blü 2]

No, I am real. You are not. I am so objective and rational that I am not subjective at all. Subjectivity is bad and that is objective, because I say so. What I say, is real, rational and objective. And if you disagree, you are not in reality, because you are so unreal, that you are not in reality.

But I'm not real, so you're only trying to win an argument with yourself.

Good luck!

 

[QuestioningMind]

I believe in man, first.

Dante used to write : You men were not made to live as beasts, but to pursue virtue and knowledge

Goethe used to write: May man be noble, altruistic and good.

I am a theist but I think that life would be meaningless if we did not fight to make life worth-living. That is, by pursuing perfection, goodness, altruism.

The law of the fittest, aka jungle law...is not worthy of human beings.
Human beings are not animals.

Then you have your own personal definition of what an animal is, because by all normal standards human being are definitely animals.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I believe that atheists too believe that life has a value that transcends the mere existence.

If life were meaningless, what is the point of making children?
Children who will live a life as meaningless as their parents '?

Just because I believe that the value of life is in its existence does not in any way make life meaningless to me. Do you honestly not find any value in existing?

 

[Estro Felino]

Just because I believe that the value of life is in its existence does not in any way make life meaningless to me. Do you honestly not find any value in existing?

Yes. Fighting for justice and the common good.

 

[Clara Tea]

Surely they must believe that they are alive. If not, they aren't very observant.

 

[Clara Tea]

Just because I believe that the value of life is in its existence does not in any way make life meaningless to me. Do you honestly not find any value in existing?

There are so many things that you can't do if you don't exist.

 

[Clara Tea]

I don't really care what seems real to you, it uses scientific methods to establish an accurate answer.

Several scientists gather around a caged animal, and wonder why it seems to get pleasure from sex. It's almost as though it enjoys it. We must write this down in our journal and study it. Perhaps we should cut it's head off and put slices of its brain under a microscope?

Should we measure and weigh the love that we find in its brain?

Perhaps some quantities are not measurable? If not, can science tell us all the answers? Are some things intuitive?

 

[Clara Tea]

Sounds to me like you believe in love; and not just as a biological sensation, but also as something which validates your existence. You believe in it’s value, no? You believe it matters?

"One bad apple won't spoil the whole bunch. You might give up on life, but don't give up on love." (Jimmy Osmond).