Starlight
Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
I am not a JW. I believe there Are many paths to God. But i take most wisdom and ethics from the new testament in the bible
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
like the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses but the denial of blood I think is so strange
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
I reply.. Arius WAS a Christian until he rejected Christian beliefs! Arius was AMONG Christians until he rejected Christian beliefs!
Meandflower This is from the new testament in the bible.
Scripture prophesy... 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Arius was a hieratic; a false teacher! Soooo... You believe a hieratic a false teacher that was rejected by Jesus! Where is your wisdom?! Where has your path to God taken you?!!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's under debate whether this letter by Peter is genuine. In my opinion all who believe in Christ are Christians. There never should have been a concept of heresy. Arius was a Christian, as were those who were trinitarian. To say otherwise is divisive, and God wants unity, not divisiveness. He said
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John, "The Gospel of John - ευαγγέλιο του ιωάννη", 13:34
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Hello Truthseeker9 it's good to meet you...
I reply there is only one truth! 2+2=4 One God!
The Jesus of Arius is not the Jesus of the Christian! Christians rejected the False Teacher Arius! Arius WAS ... WAS a Christian until he rejected Jesus!
Judas was a Christian until he rejected Jesus! Christian = Christ Follower!
I must say; for a person seeking truth you will never ever find it if you are not willing to weed out error!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
People are allowed to disagree about their conception of Christ without being out of favor with God. That's all it is, their conception of Christ is different, not a rejection of Christ. The Christians voted Arius and others out, and from then on, they were called heretics, and this led to people not being allowed to think for themselves or being severely punished at that time. This led to uniformity of thought among Christians, which I don't think is good. I believe in unity in diversity. This is the Baha'i watchword.
joelr
Well-Known Member
No Jesus really became associated with being God in John. Mark often keeps Jesus separate showing Yahweh is using him to fulfill the promise. John really up's the Jesus being God thing.
I didn't say I didn't like what I read? These are the words of people from 2000 years ago.
There are many stories about Gods who will judge. They are written by people. You have to demonstrate a God exists before you can bother to throw around sayings from a book that a God "supposedly" said? That is pointless.
Especially a book that uses mostly Hellenism and Persian myths to create a modernized Judaism? It's just a bunch of borrowed myths?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Truthseeker9 You believe in unity in diversity. I reply.. There is>>> ONLY ONE TRUTH!
Unity in diversity .. Hitler believed the Jews should be shot!
Unity in diversity The Muslims teach "Christians are infidels they have no rights!"
Unity in diversity Mormons teach "There are many gods"!
Unity in diversity The Chinees reject all religion.. Believe all should be removed!
Unity in diversity The JW's believe; Sacrificing there children is what god wants!
Truthseeker9 If you seek truth you will reject.. Unity in diversity.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
joelr you are NOT a scholar! All the scriptures are the words of God! You cannot pick and chose what you want to believe and reject the rest as lies!
What you are doing is twisting and massaging and massaging the words of God until his words say what you want them to say!
The Scriptures are two thousand years old.. You cannot change the words all you do is reject them in your unbelief!
Matthew tells you; Jesus is God!
Matthew 1:23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
joelr God himself..is telling you Jesus is God! (below)
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
joelr In the Gospel of Matthew the people worship Jesus... Worship is ONLY for God!
joelr
Well-Known Member
Then we can regard the words of Biblical scholars as true?
No. You have to demonstrate any scripture is the word of a God. First you have to demonstrate there is a God.
Then demonstrate these words are actually from a God. There is zero evidence they are from a God. They are written by men, taken from older myths and laws and show zero evidence that what you say is true.
All of the words hold the exact same truth. They are words from people.
Matthew is considered a creative re-interpretation of Mark. 98% of the original Greek in Mark is copied verbatim into Matthew. The Synoptic Problem has been solved by Christian scholarship.
"Writing in a polished Semitic "synagogue Greek", he drew on the Gospel of Mark as a source, plus the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source (material shared with Luke but not with Mark) and material unique to his own community, called the M source or "Special Matthew".[14][15]"
The majority also believe that Mark was the first gospel to be composed and that Matthew (who includes some 600 of Mark's 661 verses) and Luke both drew upon it as a major source for their works
Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia
This view has been debunked by more modern scholarship. There is no Q gospel, Mark is the source.
:
The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org
Mark considers Jesus son of God, in line with the typical demigod myth that Jesus is taken from. Sky-father and mortal woman. Later he was made into God. Dying/rising demigods were popular in religions before Christianity in that area.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
joelr I don't have to demonstrate anything! I am Christian; I have faith in Jesus my savior! I will live forever because I was IMMERSED into the living forever body of Jesus!
What you have to do is ... Quickly before you die, find the truth with an open mind.. Having it closed off before you start looking, is unproductive!
Thousands of people died with faith in their resurrection to eternal life! All the Apostles (11) died by martyrdom willing to die for what they believed in! What did they know that you don't things that you refuse to understand!!?!
Question... What do you tell your children? What do you teach them, why even feed and care for them they have NO Hope!
FACT: Man has ALWAYS believed in life after death from the caveman right up to today! The North American Indian believed in "The Great White Spirit"! The Egyptians believed in many Gods and life after death! Do you believe there are Ghosts?! Millions of people do! WHY?!
What is it that you know that the rest of the world does not? STOP...
Stop the press joelr has found the truth he is going to tell the whole world.. "All peoples have been wrong for thousands of years.. "There is NO God"!
How many people do you know that would be willing to die for what they believe is the truth!? Christians having faith in Jesus and life after death were such people! You have given up...
1) There is NO God so you don't have to worry about sinning.. Your Conscience is thus at ease!
2) There is NO God if there was why all the suffering?! (FACT.. Jesus suffered)
3) There is NO God... So there is no Satan!
4) There is NO God... Science has all the answers I need!
5) There is NO God .. There are many people teaching me thus, I believe and have faith in their teaching!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I am saying only that each should be allowed to have their own opinion about the truth. No one knows all the truth! There is only one truth but as fallible human beings we all have faulty or incomplete opinions about truth and should be allowed to have them as long as it harms no one as some of the examples you give do. Having no diversity in the Middle ages among Catholics led to persecution of those who thought differently. You know that as well as I do. It is quite different now, I know. But my wife has had a lot of contact with Catholics in my area and she has the impression that the Catholics here are afraid to consider any other faith or denomination for fear of going to hell.
Christians as delineated by Muhammad had rights. If some Muslims say Christians have no rights, that is on them. We Baha'is know all about that. JWs say sacrificing their children is what God wants. Explain what you mean by that.
The Baha'is have a covenant that so long as a group of people do not try to rebel against our administrative order, each has the right to their own opinion, and no one has the right to say their own opinion is authoritative. This our unity in diversity.
Do you fear that you will go to hell if you are not Catholic?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Truthseeker9 the Catholic Church has the "FULNESS of the truth" all others have parts and portions of it!!
!) The Good thief went to heaven (Paradise) he was NOT Catholic!
2) Catholic Church was entrusted by Jesus to teach all Nations.. Jesus gave all of the Authority of Heaven to his holy Church to teach all the world!
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
3) Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Holy Catholic Church to the very end of time! No other body can make this claim, not the Baha's!
4) The teaching of Jesus is founded on love.... The Catholic will go to heaven if they LOVE God and Neighbor! >>>> note... To be "Righteous" a person MUST do right!
1 John 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. DO.....
Truthseeker9 do you see it? The righteous Go to heaven don't have to be Catholic to do what is right!
LOOK...
Matthew 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
The Sheep and Goats story: The Righteous are the Sheep they did not even know they were serving God.. CAN'T...
Truthseeker9 can't say they were earning their way into heaven! Jesus continues with his story...saying the; "Faith ALONE Goats" are Satan's Children they do NOTHING right, they are NOT righteous!
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, etc
Truthseeker9 Again.... The righteous Go to heaven don't have to be Catholic to do what is right!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
No need for those two exclamations points or to get angry. I seem to have riled you up, I'm sorry you are upset. I shouldn't have said anything. I will say nothing more on this, nothing would be accomplished by that. In the rest you look upset also.
I understand that part. I'm glad you feel that way. I get that from the Bible too.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
\
.
You don't like what you see/read so you stick your head into the sand...
You asked a question... "Why/How are the JW's sacrificing their children to God in his name"!? Simply put.. In the Old Testament God made it very clear he did not like Child Sacrifice! If I remember correctly it was people (not the Jews) that sacrifice to the god ball... The JW's read "abstain from blood" in the new testament... So they refuse to save their children with a blood transfusion saying; "It is what God wants"!
Truthseeker9 your religion is rooted in Islam. Islam traces its religious roots to the heretical Christian environment that had existed in the East for centuries because of Arianism, which denies that Jesus Christ is eternal God and the assumption instead; Jesus is only an exalted creature.
Again I point out; there is only One Truth! Wanting to believe all ways lead to heaven cannot be logical... God is the Judge if he bent even a tiny bit away from the truth he would NOT be perfect he would NOT be God!
Christianity and Islam clash both cannot be right! Jesus preached forgiveness and eternal life through him! Opposite to Islam Satan is clearly Anti-Christ he would establish religions that reject truth!
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Don't want to argue any more than I have already. It doesn't help to argue.
Gezellig
Member
Meandflower, this is a very difficult question, but you also probably know that blood transfusions do not always go well.
You also need to understand. Those who write articles in JW, as a rule, are not parents. It is impossible to understand the state of a parent without being a parent.
You also need to understand. Those who write articles in JW, as a rule, are not parents. It is impossible to understand the state of a parent without being a parent.
Last edited:
joelr
Well-Known Member
If you make a claim you have to demonstrate it. That is how a discussion works. If you want to cite personal beliefs just for the sake of telling people what you believe without any evidence then great. Your claims have no evidence. Ok?
Yes, I know that dying/rising savior demigods promise eternal life in the afterlife of the religion. Those are ancient myths. Do you have evidence that this version of the myth is true?
This is just a claim. People also claim to be abducted by aliens, visited by Lord Krishna and one person even says the angel Gabrielle told him that Jesus was not actually God. All claims, like yours they should not be believed without evidence.
That's odd, to think I have a closed mind? I've been studying apologetics and historicity for many years. I am actually taking the time to look at evidence rather than just assume something is true because I want it to be true. After years of Theology, apologetics and historicity and I can safely say apologetics is psuedo-science.
In those days every person believed everything happened because of some supernatural agent, so this isn't surprising. Many have died in the name of Islam and Hinduism, does that mean the religion is true?
Also the apostles are characters in a myth. Written like a myth, using mythic literary devices, the main character scores higher than King Arthur on the Rank-Ragalin mythotype scale and the actual theology is taken from Hellenism. There is zero chance these stories are anything but myth.
I teach my nephews to do their own research and decide for themselves. I tell them there are 2 fields theology/apologetics where many half truths and lies can be demonstrated. There are also other fields, comparative religion, archeology and historicity where religions can be shown to be borrowed myths and didn't happen as stated.
Hope is not attached to believing a bronze age myth. Instead of wasting your life in preparation for an afterlife that there is no evidence for to understand this life may be all we have.
Being upset because of death doesn't make myths real. Hellenism is where souls, heaven and strong emphasis on the afterlife came to be a thing. The Hebrew religious leaders adopted it during the Greek occupation. Before then religion was not about getting to an afterlife. It was about cultic acts to get favors during life. Good weather and health. The modern obsession with heaven is a Greek creation. Sanders and Wright are 2 scholars who write (peer-reviewed) work on this subject.
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead
Heaven - Wikipedia
People believe in ghosts as well as ufos, alien abductions, voting fraud, flat Earth, conspiracy theories.....because they are real? Nope.
The older religions did believe in deities but an afterlife for humans was not always a concept. Even if it was it doesn't make it true?
Your theory here is easily debunked because humans have has several cross-culture myths along with Gods. Guess what , they are all fiction.
Creation of mankind from clay
Acquisition of fire for the benefit of humanity
Flood myth
Axis mundi - center of the universe
Deus otiosus supreme being who cut itself off from humanity
Deus otiosus - young gods vs old gods
Giants
Dragons and serpents
Dying god returns to life - common myth
joelr
Well-Known Member
Actually you should stop the press because you are now putting words in my mouth. I didn't say there was no God. I said there is no evidence for a God and religions are myths.
Ironically if you are Christian then you also think that about all other religions. I just think the same about yours.
Isis are also willing. Does that make their doctrine true?
In case you are not aware here is a list of Martyers from all religions
Martyr - Wikipedia
Doesn't make any of them true?
YOu realize you are using the oldest and tiredest apologetics here?
I am a fan of Socrates and Platonic philosophy which teaches virtues and being good to yourself and others as a principle to live by. I do not need fake myths about a sky-God who judges and a myth about hell to be a good person and enjoy that fact.
Hell is a Persian myth. In the OT hell was not a destination and Satan was an agent of Yahweh, doing his bidding. Bringing plagues, torturing Job.
During the 2nd Temple Period the Israelites were exposed to the Persian myths which is where that version of Satan comes from. As well as messianic world saviors and so on.
"
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]
The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[31] particularly in the apocalypses.["
Uh, in case you hadn't noticed suffering seems to be part of life. The Jesus story is a myth. All of the stories about dying/rising demigods are not actually real.
Of course there is no Satan? That is a myth. In Judaism Satan was an agent of God then during the Persian occupation they changed him to be like the Persian version. It's a myth.
"The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] and the Baháʼí Faith."
Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia
This quote is from Mary Boyce
Good for you. I find that psychology also has answers. Philosophy, secular humanism, secular spirituality and many disiplines.....I don't know if there is no God but religious fiction is definitely not related to any real entity that would be God. Yahweh is about as probable as Zeus.
Sorry faith is not a good path to truth. People can also have faith in racism, radical violent versions of religion, any other religion that isn't yours, scientology, a dictatorship. You should raise your standards of evidence and require good empirical evidence before you choose a belief based on what you want to be true.
I haven't mentioned God as such but the version of God in all religions, evidence all points to made up stories by people borrowing from older religions. Religious syncretism.
So you should study the evidence rather than faith.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
There are Miracles... The Unexplainable! Healings things baffling science! Google: Loretto Chapel- "Miracle Staircase"!
There is Evil; there must be Good!
There is History.. The world has always believed in a god or gods!
There are Stupid people rejecting truth, always will be!
There is prophesy fulfilled!
There is logic... All things have a beginning and order in chaos!
There is intelligent design!
etc
There is Evil; there must be Good!
There is History.. The world has always believed in a god or gods!
There are Stupid people rejecting truth, always will be!
There is prophesy fulfilled!
There is logic... All things have a beginning and order in chaos!
There is intelligent design!
etc
Wow, somehow I missed this thread, Meandflower! I only found it a couple days ago.
Appreciate the kind words about us (JW’sj.
Let me start by saying, no rational doctor will guarantee a blood transfusion will save a person’s life.
The only way a person can guarantee their life, is by being faithful / obedient to God. See Revelation 2:10.
That said, Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29 tells us (Christians) to “abstain...from blood.” Nothing specifically about ‘only eating’ it is prohibited.
If a (hypothetical) doctor tells an alcoholic to “abstain from alcohol,” is it ok if this same (hypothetical) alcoholic injects alcohol through a needle?
Some statistics:
https://www.uchealth.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/CLNLAB-2018-05-18-Risks-of-Blood-Transfusion.pdf
But it’s not about the risks, or the health issue, with us... it’s about obedience.
Next, I’m going to post a fact-based op ed piece.