Linguistics: Modern English with gendered nouns?

[Riverwolf]

In another thread, it was pointed out to me that English is the oddball of Indo-European languages in its (almost) complete lack of gendered nouns. Even Old English (Anglo-Saxon) had gendered nouns.

So, what I started wondering is this: if we were to translate the Anglo-Saxon gendered nouns and articles to modern English, what might that look like?

Quick primer: the letter þ (called thorn), which is no longer used in English but is still used in some others, represents the unvoiced "th" sound, as in thatch (as opposed to the voiced "th" sound, which is more like the modern equivalents of the words below). So when you see "þis", it's pronounced and means "this" with a hard "th", and is not the naughty word for urine.

For those unfamiliar with linguistic terms,

Nominative is the subject of a verb.
Accusative is the direct object of a verb.
Genitive demonstrates possession.
Dative is the indirect object of a verb.
Instrumental indicates the method of a verb

Finally, in Old English, a dash (or any mark) above a letter means that the vowel is held a bit longer than normal.

So, according to the Wikipedia article on Old English grammar, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_grammar#Definite_articles_and_demonstratives, the definite articles in that language were as follows:

the/that/those:

Nominative: se(masc); þæt(neut); sēo(fem); þā(plu)
Accusative: þone(masc); þæt(neut); þā(fem); þā(plu)
Genitive: þæs(masc); þæs(neut); þǣre(fem); þāra, þǣra(plu)
Dative: þǣm(masc); þǣm(neut); þǣre(fem); þǣm, þām(plu)
Instrumental: þȳ, þon(masc); þȳ, þon(fem); *þāra(neut); þǣm(plu)

this/these/yon

Nominative: þes(masc); þis; þēos; þās
Accusative: þisne; þis; þās; þās
Genitive: þisses; þisses; þisse, þisre; þisra
Dative: þissum; þissum; þisse, þisre; þissum
Instrumental: þȳs; þȳs; *þīes; *þīos

Applying these to their modern equivalents, and taking into account vowel changes over the years...

"Se" would be the same today: se man walked.
"That" is already a word that's survived.
"Sea" would not only be a synonym for ocean, but also the feminine nominative indicator: sea woman walked.
"Tha" might be the plural equivalent, pronounced as in "man". So, tha people walked. Otherwise, we could just use the modern "the".

BTW, I'm using people as examples, since I don't know what nouns in Old English were gendered.

I suppose I could translate the other words, but I doubt there's enough room in this post to do that. Still, interesting thought experiment IMO.

 

[Estro Felino]

well...I think it's a positive thing that English has no gendered nouns. Otherwise it would have been more difficult

as for the gender of nouns. well...you can try to reconstruct the etymology of each English word, and borrow the gender from other languages.
Example:
the word door comes from Old German. In German door is Tuer (feminine)
so the door is feminine
the word pollution comes from French: pollution. in French it is feminine
and so on

 

[Riverwolf]

well...I think it's a positive thing that English has no gendered nouns. Otherwise it would have been more difficult

Oh, I agree.

as for the gender of nouns. well...you can try to reconstruct the etymology of each English word, and borrow the gender from other languages.
Example:
the word door comes from Old German. In German door is Tuer (feminine)
so the door is feminine
the word pollution comes from French: pollution. in French it is feminine
and so on

True. Didn't really feel like doing that right then, but that is a good strategy, especially if the genders of nouns is cross-language.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Gender is weird enough without using it to label the inanimate.

 

[Alt Thinker]

Gender is weird enough without using it to label the inanimate.

I agree. In fact I also support the common if technically incorrect practice of using the plural form of third person personal pronouns in place of the singular form when the gender is unknown or generic. That is, 'they' and 'them' would replace 'he' and 'him' or the PC 'he/she' and 'him/her'. Example: If anyone finds my wallet, they will receive a reward. Sounds less awkward than: he/she will receive a reward. And also avoid the inherent sexism of he or he/she. Why not she/he?

There is precedent for this. The originally plural 'you' replaced the singular 'thee' and 'thou' long ago except for special circumstances.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ugh! I'm glad gender was ditched. Chinese is simpler for this lack also.
Even though I use the subjunctive case, were it eliminated, I'd be OK.

 

[Alt Thinker]

An interesting thing - English may be difficult to learn properly. But it can be misused and even badly mangled and still be understood. In French and German, the only modern languages in which I received formal training (*), that is much less the case. In German serious misuse could easily change the meaning. Pretty much the same in French with the added fillip that it ticks off native French speakers.

(*) Much too long ago for this aging brain to attempt using them.

 

[Skwim]

I always get gendered nouns confused with sexed nouns.

 

[Glaurung]

So, what I started wondering is this: if we were to translate the Anglo-Saxon gendered nouns and articles to modern English, what might that look like?

You'd need to speak with someone with knowledge of Anglo-Saxon vocabulary in order to tell you that. But I'll give it a shot by assuming that a noun's gender in this hypothetical English is the same as it's equivalent in related languages.

For example, table derives from French and it's feminine. So, seo table.

Sun is Germanic, being masculine in High German I'll assume it's masculine in English. Se sun.

So, a sentince may look like this.

And þus, se man gave þone apple þaere woman.

I omitted the dative to, as the dative case has now taken its function.

And of course, we can play with the syntax without changing the meaning thanks to the case declension.

And þus, þaere woman gave þone apple se man.

And þus, gave þone apple se man þaere woman.

And þus, þone apple þaere woman gave se man


I may have made mistakes here as I am working off the article chart in the wikibook.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Old_English/Articles

I don't know any Anglo-Saxon so this is just my guesswork if the declension and gender system were applied to modern English.

Note, þ, Þ, ð and Ð can be inputed by use of the international keyboard in Windows.
ctrl, alt, t = þ
ctrl, alt, shift, t = Þ
ctrl, alt, d = ð
ctrl, alt, shift, d = Ð

 

[Alt Thinker]

I always get gendered nouns confused with sexed nouns.

Gender is not a substitute for sex.

But then what is?

 

[Riverwolf]

An interesting thing - English may be difficult to learn properly. But it can be misused and even badly mangled and still be understood. In French and German, the only modern languages in which I received formal training (*), that is much less the case. In German serious misuse could easily change the meaning. Pretty much the same in French with the added fillip that it ticks off native French speakers.

'Tis very true in English. ^_^ I blame the fact that we have so many conflicting and ancillary rules that don't make sense. After all, most of the "manglings" (perfect example right there) are really just adding the standard rules to words that are supposed to be "exceptions".

On the other hand, I understand that German is a very literal language. English being a more metaphoric language, using the wrong word can easily lead to gross miscommunication. I see it all the bloody time.

You'd need to speak with someone with knowledge of Anglo-Saxon vocabulary in order to tell you that. But I'll give it a shot by assuming that a noun's gender in this hypothetical English is the same as it's equivalent in related languages.

For example, table derives from French and it's feminine. So, seo table.

Sun is Germanic, being masculine in High German I'll assume it's masculine in English. Se sun.

So, a sentince may look like this.

And þus, se man gave þone apple þaere woman.

I omitted the dative to, as the dative case has now taken its function.

And of course, we can play with the syntax without changing the meaning thanks to the case declension.

And þus, þaere woman gave þone apple se man.

And þus, gave þone apple se man þaere woman.

And þus, þone apple þaere woman gave se man


I may have made mistakes here as I am working off the article chart in the wikibook.
Old English/Articles - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

I don't know any Anglo-Saxon so this is just my guesswork if the declension and gender system were applied to modern English.

Well, the examples I used also applied the evolution of vowels through the centuries. But even still, just looking at the ones you provided, I am SO glad English dropped the whole thing, however interesting the thought experiment might be.

And I'm pretty sure the Anglish folk feel the same way, because I don't recall seeing anything about using grammatical gender on their page.

...interesting that Sun in High German is masculine, since Sunna is a Goddess in Germanic mythology. Guess my random guess that maybe it had something to do with the animistic polytheism of the Tribes isn't the case, after all.

Note, þ, Þ, ð and Ð can be inputed by use of the international keyboard in Windows.
ctrl, alt, t = þ
ctrl, alt, shift, t = Þ
ctrl, alt, d = ð
ctrl, alt, shift, d = Ð

Guess I need an international keyboard, then. I had to download a plugin for LibreOffice and copy/paste the inputted text in order to get those letters. ^_^

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How would it look? To native English speakers it would look very bizarre, laughable, and absurd.
Ich gebe der Hund die Schale. It's simply I gave the dog the bowl. Trying to translate it more specific, and include gender, would look more like "I gave he dog she bowl." Or it could get really confusing with neuter, such as: I trage das Hemp (I wear the shirt), which would be very literally "I carry it(?) shirt."
What also sucks about gender, such as with the dog example, der Hund, it means it's a male dog. And unless you are referring to specifically a female dog that is known to by the audience to be female, saying die Hunden is improper grammar. When you have genders you can eat "him" (Ich esse ihm) even though what you ate was not an animal and had no gender.
I'm glad we don't have them in English.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm glad we don't have them in English.

If English had been as difficult as German, I would have probably shot myself.
German is too difficult. Declensions...sentence order...

and the sentence you wrote is actually: Ich gebe dem Hund die Schale. Yes...der becomes dem because it means "to the dog".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If English had been as difficult as German, I would have probably shot myself.
German is too difficult. Declensions...sentence order...

and the sentence you wrote is actually: Ich gebe dem Hund die Schale. Yes...der becomes dem because it means "to the dog".

LOL! I was so caught up in thinking of different gendered nouns to show how silly it looks I forgot about that. That and I'm still getting used to different cases. English has them, but hardly at all. Especially when compared to German, which makes it impossible to follow a sentence unless you know them.

 

[Glaurung]

interesting that Sun in High German is masculine, since Sunna is a Goddess in Germanic mythology. Guess my random guess that maybe it had something to do with the animistic polytheism of the Tribes isn't the case, after all.

Opps, no sun, Sonne is feminine in German, and the moon masculine. I got my French and German mixed up as in French it's the other way around.

Either way, I didn't actually use it but yeah, my mistake there.

And I'm pretty sure the Anglish folk feel the same way, because I don't recall seeing anything about using grammatical gender on their page.

Anglish I believe is about reconstructing Modern English using only native germanic vocabulary. It's not about reconstructing the Old English case which declined in large thanks to the interactions with the invading Danish.

Old Norse and Old English had similar vocabulary, but each language had inflection patterns which got in the way of mutual intelligibility. This pushed more emphasis on syntax rather than inflection for grammatical function which started the course for English to become analytical. The Normans, also speaking a largely analytical language (French) were the death blow for English morphology as English became constrained to peasants for the next few hundred years.

 

[Riverwolf]

Opps, no sun, Sonne is feminine in German, and the moon masculine. I got my French and German mixed up as in French it's the other way around.

Either way, I didn't actually use it but yeah, my mistake there.

I see.

So there might be some merit to my idea, after all.

Anglish I believe is about reconstructing Modern English using only native germanic vocabulary. It's not about reconstructing the Old English case which declined in large thanks to the interactions with the invading Danish.

Okay, fair enough.

Old Norse and Old English had similar vocabulary, but each language had inflection patterns which got in the way of mutual intelligibility. This pushed more emphasis on syntax rather than inflection for grammatical function which started the course for English to become analytical. The Normans, also speaking a largely analytical language (French) were the death blow for English morphology as English became constrained to peasants for the next few hundred years.

Interesting. I tend to focus in so much on the influence Old French had on Modern English that it's easy to forget the influence of Old Norse.

 

[DreadFish]

Gender is not a substitute for sex.

But then what is?

I have a gender but I sure don't have any sex!


:sad4:

 

[Smart_Guy]

Finally, in Old English, a dash (or any mark) above a letter means that the vowel is held a bit longer than normal.

I believe that is used even in modern English to identify the stressed syllable in some ambiguous lexical words. Since every syllable in English must have at least one vowel in each syllable, some words could be confusing in which syllable to stress.

The best example that comes to my mind now is the noun and verb "present" in which the first syllable is stressed in the noun and the second in the verb. I do see the word written with that dash thingy from time to time.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I have a gender but I sure don't have any sex!

:sad4:

Fish don't have sex?

Gee, that life must be boring

Nah, as if I do have sex

 

[Flankerl]

How would it look? To native English speakers it would look very bizarre, laughable, and absurd.
Ich gebe der Hund die Schale. It's simply I gave the dog the bowl. Trying to translate it more specific, and include gender, would look more like "I gave he dog she bowl." Or it could get really confusing with neuter, such as: I trage das Hemp (I wear the shirt), which would be very literally "I carry it(?) shirt."
What also sucks about gender, such as with the dog example, der Hund, it means it's a male dog. And unless you are referring to specifically a female dog that is known to by the audience to be female, saying die Hunden is improper grammar. When you have genders you can eat "him" (Ich esse ihm) even though what you ate was not an animal and had no gender.
I'm glad we don't have them in English.

Actually not quite right.

Its "Ich gebe dem Hund die Schale" which in itself sounds weird because no dog owns a Schale but a Napf. So it would be "Ich gebe dem Hund den Napf or seinen Napf".

Its "das Hemd". Hemp doesnt exist in German.

And of course "die Hunden" is improper for a female dog because a female dog is "die Hündin".

Also when you are eating him its "Ich esse ihn".