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Living on stolen land

We should view "settler-colonial" nations like the US and Canada as occupying stolen land.


  • Total voters
    28

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Might is right?

That seems to be the opposite side of the argument, that the land wasn't stolen, but conquered. It's a predatory philosophy, although it's often run parallel to notions of "Manifest Destiny," implying that the Hand of God is at work and that all of this is God's will.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I could see that, although one could question the pretense of making treaties by a government which never had any intention of honoring those treaties. Someone else mentioned "conquering," but it wasn't really like that. America's expansionism was as much a matter of flimflammery as anything else.

It is said that a lawyer can steal more with a briefcase than a hundred men armed with machine guns. It might also be said that a politician can steal more than an army of one million men (although about 50,000 cavalry might do).

In some cases it wasn't even as deliberate and organised as that. The Black Hills were taken by settlers despite the best efforts...or at least efforts...of the government to dissuade white settlement (a violation of the 1968 Treaty of Fort Laramie with the 'Sioux Nation' and Arapaho peoples).

As is often the case, things were messy. Custer marched onto the protected lands, nominally to track down rogue bands of Indians who hadn't presented at the prescribed reservations. But the presence of geologists with him confuses things, and those same geologists discovered gold.

From there, General Sheridan played an interesting game, both ordering his subordinates to clear the rapidly growing mining population from protected lands, and also letting anyone who would listen know he wasn't opposed to settlement by white communities. In any case, attempts to displace the growing mining population were unsuccessful, and as tensions and violence rose, the President decided action had to be taken to protect the (illegal) white settlers from Indian attacks. And so the treaty was simply cast aside, and Indians were ordered to move away from their legally acquired hunting grounds and reservations, because gold.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
That seems to be the opposite side of the argument, that the land wasn't stolen, but conquered. It's a predatory philosophy, although it's often run parallel to notions of "Manifest Destiny," implying that the Hand of God is at work and that all of this is God's will.

Legal contracts were in place in a great many instances, so 'conquered' would seem an attempt to romanticise what actually occurred, I would say. There were also sometimes questions of 'who had God on their side' given the division of many areas of what is now the USA (or Canada) between a variety of European powers (and later America itself).
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I've recently been giving myself a proper education about Native American history because school didn't do it for me. I would highly recommend anyone who claims to be a citizen of North America do this. It will likely change your perspective on this question.

The fact of the matter is, colonialism was a cultural and ethnic genocide attempt against peoples who had been living on the North American continent for over ten-thousand years. Instead of attempting to integrate with the indigenous cultures in their new environments, colonialists largely went the way of just wiping everything out that dared to stand in their way. Littered with false promises and broken treaties, the story of how colonials treated indigenous people in North America is absolutely appalling to anyone with even a grain of empathy. In some places in the Americas, this continues to happen today. Did you know, for example, that some of the migrants attempting to cross the US/Mexico border are indigenous peoples from Central America whose ways of life are being uproot and their lands are being stolen from them right now? I had the privilege of listening to a speaker recently who is one of those people and I was ashamed that I had no idea this was still happening now as she spoke to us.

So yes. If you are a descendent of a colonial who lives in North America, you're living on stolen, violently conquered, callously wrested land. Calling it what it is... is an important component of acknowledging the brutally ugly history of our ancestors and making amends for it. And not just with these shallow "land acknowledgements" that have been popular nowadays. By recognizing native peoples still exist, are still fighting to be recognized as sovereign nations, and even do basic things like keeping native children within native tribes for their upbringing (see Native American children's protection against adoption by non-Indian families is before the Supreme Court).
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It is a worthless phrase.

This land was not “stolen”. It was conquered, and won. There is much to be proud of, and nothing to be ashamed of.
Except what we civilized people would call war crimes today, targeting women and children and killing them, happened deliberately and as a matter of consequences of expansion. No pride in that, but I understand how conservatives need their "white washed" history.

How many treaties did whites have with various Native American people? Hundreds. And the whites broke that vast makority of them.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Except what we civilized people would call war crimes today, targeting women and children and killing them, happened deliberately and as a matter of consequences of expansion. No pride in that, but I understand how conservatives need their "white washed" history.

How many treaties did whites have with various Native American people? Hundreds. And the whites broke that vast makority of them.

Except, I do not whitewash. My ancestors did terrible things. My ancestors did beautiful things. Awesome things. I accept all of it. I am glad they did the things they did. I would not be here if they didn’t, nor would my family, nor would my country. People had to suffer for this. People had to die. I do not regret it. I do not apologize for it. I do not feel shame or remorse. I am proud of my ancestors and I am proud of my country.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What I think is anyone who thinks America is stolen land, should give back their own land, so they can make a down payment on their belief. Act on your convictions with a tangible deed.

To me, it seems like those who make a big deal about the stolen land, expect their social outrage to be their payment in full. There is a term for this. Now with their debt paid, they can force others; steal land from others. This is a Left wing pattern of behavior, where you atone stealing,, with a different form of stealing. Or atone for racism, with a different form of racism.

Reparations uses the same schema, where everyone of one color is supposed to feel guilty, for what they never did. The Left only has to pretend to care, and the tax payer gets to pay the tab; stealing.

Atheists also use the same basic schema to make Christians feel guilty about a past, so they can disarm them and bully them easier. I don't buy into any of this power scams.

I look at history, like I do life. When you are young you do things and take chances since your are still learning. Things do not always work out and often you will crash and burn.

As you get older and you start to sort it all out, you learn and try not repeat the mistake of the past. You accept the good with the bad since all this data was new at one time, and its is the sum of all that makes you the person you are today.

I like to look at the youth of history as the best and worse of times, from which as humans mature, they learn from all the data of the past. You cannot steal land anymore in America, for example. This is a lesson learned from the wild west days of youth. Some are posturing to reinstitute Government based stealing again. It is the same crowd, who uses all these scams.

Again, if you think land should be returned, return your own land to set an example for all. Don't try to steal land, using Big Government, or else that will be regressive, since most Americans have learned from the past and don't do that anymore. I don't know anyone who want to own slaves, either. Lessons learned.

The student loan debt forgiveness plan; from the same group of scammers, is will be like stealing land from the tax payers, who had nothing to do with this college experience or debt. The problem of student debt, should be between the students, universities, banks and Lefty politicians who made this mess hoping to skim on the steal. If students accept this stolen property, from the tax payer without asking them, should you feel guilty? There will be a real time connection to you accepting what was not yours, and not a hypothetical connection to the past, where you were not involved in the stolen property. Ask the universities for a rebate.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Is this a meaningful concept though? Do any groups live on land that is rightfully “theirs” who didn’t ultimately acquire it through violence and conquest at some point?

Interesting OP! Whenever I think about this, I always get stuck on how to draw the line. Is there a statute of limitations? Who deserves reparations and who doesn't?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
All land is stolen, in the sense that no person can have any inherent right to it.

It just happens that various forms of political and military enforcement exist for the purpose of pretending otherwise.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Some people talk about “stolen land”, usually in relation to the ‘settler-colonialist’ states like the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and also Israel.

Is this a meaningful concept though? Do any groups live on land that is rightfully “theirs” who didn’t ultimately acquire it through violence and conquest at some point?

Why did more recent white settler-colonialists 'steal' the land, but no one would ever say 'settler-colonialists' like the Anglo-Saxons or Han Chinese "stole" land they currently occupy?

Irredentist claims made by nations, such as Russian claims on Crimea and Novorossiya, 'German' Sudetenland, or those which sparked the Balkan War, are generally viewed as regressive people ‘living in the past’. To those without an emotional investment, it's just one group arbitrarily deciding they are the rightful owners of land that has changed hands countless times.

But progressives who favour the ‘stolen land’ terminology see this claim as as noble (as of course do the irredentists).

It’s not the case that many of the people who had their land’s ‘stolen’ had been there since time immemorial.

Many people will look at white South Africans as being the descendants of people who ‘stole’ land from its rightful African owners, such as the Zulus.

White settlers did indeed displace African pastoralists, the Khoikhoi, and hunter-gatherers, the San (“bushmen”) but so did the Zulus. Moreover, in many places they were doing it at exactly the same time (See Bantu expansion and the mfecane).

White settlers had actually been in possession of the Cape Colony for longer than many of the Bantu-speaking groups had been in possession of what we would now see unequivocally as “their” land.

In places like America and New Zealand, white people conquered/subjugated peoples who had often been in possession of “their” land for less than a couple of centuries, and who had acquired it by force (even genocide) too.

And while it is true that some indigenous groups didn't have the same concept of land ownership, they certainly used violence to be able to use desirable territories and to prevent others from using them.

Is there something fundamentally more ethical and legitimate about 'indigenous' people violently acquiring their land from other 'indigenous' peoples? Or is it like the irredentist who picks an arbitrary time in history which defines who owns the land in perpetuity?

I guess some people might say that some lands are “stolen” because treaties signed were not honoured. They weren’t honoured anywhere at that time though beyond their usefulness. War was an instrument of policy the world over, and treaties were temporary until one side thought they could improve their status by breaking it. It's not ethical, but might made right everywhere, including among the people conquered/subjugated.

Just to be clear, this obviously doesn’t prevent us from acknowledging myriad historical atrocities (although it’s not like any one group had the monopoly on these).

It also doesn’t preclude the need to identify and acknowledge the legacies of these actions or create initiatives to improve the lives of the descendent of previous ‘owners’ of the land in the present and future.

It is simply about whether using a term like "stolen land" is useful or misleading.


If pretty much all land has been acquired by violent means though, what, if anything, qualifies some land as “stolen” and the rest as legitimately occupied by its rightful owners? Are irredentist claims also legitimate? Is there a difference?

Does the concept of 'stolen land' help us to understand the world better? Is it just arbitrary and ideological and thus obfuscate more than it informs? Something else?

Thoughts?


IMO, you only own something as long as you can enforce ownership. As soon as what you own is taken and you can't recovery it, you no longer own it.
What we own now is enforced through a legal process.
Possession without the ability to enforce ownership is not ownership.

You can call this transference theft, but it what you possess can be taken from you, how can you claim ownership?

BTW the land I currently own was previously only owned by lizards and turtles.
Even so, I only own it for so long as I can enforce ownership. I imagine at some future point the lizards and turtles will come to reclaim the land.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What I think is anyone who thinks America is stolen land, should give back their own land, so they can make a down payment on their belief. Act on your convictions with a tangible deed.

In truth, I've been seriously considering this after doing my run-through of indigenous history over the past few months. I haven't created a will yet; I'm middle-aged and in good health so it just isn't a priority. But I have thought about it from time to time, and as of now Native Americans have absolutely made my list of places my assets will go to. The other groups up for consideration are public libraries, universities, and conservation groups. It seems pretty obvious to me now that Native Americans should get whatever real estate I have when I die. It's something I will need to open up a conversation with the local tribe about.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Some people talk about “stolen land”, usually in relation to the ‘settler-colonialist’ states like the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and also Israel.

Is this a meaningful concept though? Do any groups live on land that is rightfully “theirs” who didn’t ultimately acquire it through violence and conquest at some point?

Why did more recent white settler-colonialists 'steal' the land, but no one would ever say 'settler-colonialists' like the Anglo-Saxons or Han Chinese "stole" land they currently occupy?

Irredentist claims made by nations, such as Russian claims on Crimea and Novorossiya, 'German' Sudetenland, or those which sparked the Balkan War, are generally viewed as regressive people ‘living in the past’. To those without an emotional investment, it's just one group arbitrarily deciding they are the rightful owners of land that has changed hands countless times.

But progressives who favour the ‘stolen land’ terminology see this claim as as noble (as of course do the irredentists).

It’s not the case that many of the people who had their land’s ‘stolen’ had been there since time immemorial.

Many people will look at white South Africans as being the descendants of people who ‘stole’ land from its rightful African owners, such as the Zulus.

White settlers did indeed displace African pastoralists, the Khoikhoi, and hunter-gatherers, the San (“bushmen”) but so did the Zulus. Moreover, in many places they were doing it at exactly the same time (See Bantu expansion and the mfecane).

White settlers had actually been in possession of the Cape Colony for longer than many of the Bantu-speaking groups had been in possession of what we would now see unequivocally as “their” land.

In places like America and New Zealand, white people conquered/subjugated peoples who had often been in possession of “their” land for less than a couple of centuries, and who had acquired it by force (even genocide) too.

And while it is true that some indigenous groups didn't have the same concept of land ownership, they certainly used violence to be able to use desirable territories and to prevent others from using them.

Is there something fundamentally more ethical and legitimate about 'indigenous' people violently acquiring their land from other 'indigenous' peoples? Or is it like the irredentist who picks an arbitrary time in history which defines who owns the land in perpetuity?

I guess some people might say that some lands are “stolen” because treaties signed were not honoured. They weren’t honoured anywhere at that time though beyond their usefulness. War was an instrument of policy the world over, and treaties were temporary until one side thought they could improve their status by breaking it. It's not ethical, but might made right everywhere, including among the people conquered/subjugated.

Just to be clear, this obviously doesn’t prevent us from acknowledging myriad historical atrocities (although it’s not like any one group had the monopoly on these).

It also doesn’t preclude the need to identify and acknowledge the legacies of these actions or create initiatives to improve the lives of the descendent of previous ‘owners’ of the land in the present and future.

It is simply about whether using a term like "stolen land" is useful or misleading.


If pretty much all land has been acquired by violent means though, what, if anything, qualifies some land as “stolen” and the rest as legitimately occupied by its rightful owners? Are irredentist claims also legitimate? Is there a difference?

Does the concept of 'stolen land' help us to understand the world better? Is it just arbitrary and ideological and thus obfuscate more than it informs? Something else?

Thoughts?
It is an important view to hold if it did happen. I don’t think it should validate any claims unless there is a clear tangible remedy for an individual that suffered actual harm though. That is claim by descendants several generations down such as is the case with with Russia or many cases in North America and South America should not hold merit. This does not mean that no cases should hold merit.
 
Something to consider is that "stealing" need not always have a negative connotation, right? If I steal bread to feed my family, I am not necessarily morally wrong. Robin Hood stealing from the rich to feed the poor has a sense of honor in it.

Whether it was right or wrong for Europeans to forcibly take the land away from Indigenous folks for God, Gold, and Glory is an academic question at this point.

In this case it certainly is negative in both denotation and connotation. It is usually done to specifically highlight others as the "rightful owners".

But what we do with the stolen land is a practical moral question.

For me if you accept you have stolen something you should give it back to its rightful owners. I can't see how someone can acknowledge theft but also think that they should get to keep the best part of what they stole.

I think calling it stolen makes little sense unless we are going to call pretty much all the land in the world stolen though. It's just purely arbitrary otherwise. Almost all people lived by the sword and some of them died for it. It sounds harsh, but it generally wasn't peaceful moral people being oppressed by violent, immoral people, it was violent people being oppressed by other violent people who were just better at violence.

Of course I believe, as much as possible, people shouldn't live by the sword today and that we should try to find the most equitable solutions we can to the current state of affairs. The history should be known and taught as accurately and objectively as possible acknowledging all atrocities that were committed and the sufferings of all people involved.

IMO at least, the 'stolen land' trope misleads more than it enlightens in this regard though.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Except, I do not whitewash. My ancestors did terrible things. My ancestors did beautiful things. Awesome things. I accept all of it. I am glad they did the things they did. I would not be here if they didn’t, nor would my family, nor would my country. People had to suffer for this. People had to die. I do not regret it. I do not apologize for it. I do not feel shame or remorse. I am proud of my ancestors and I am proud of my country.

Fair enough. Seems pretty simplistic to me, but I'll give you points for consistency.
How do you process and deal with the current impact of past events, out of interest?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
In this case it certainly is negative in both denotation and connotation. It is usually done to specifically highlight others as the "rightful owners".



For me if you accept you have stolen something you should give it back to its rightful owners. I can't see how someone can acknowledge theft but also think that they should get to keep the best part of what they stole.

I think calling it stolen makes little sense unless we are going to call pretty much all the land in the world stolen though. It's just purely arbitrary otherwise. Almost all people lived by the sword and some of them died for it. It sounds harsh, but it generally wasn't peaceful moral people being oppressed by violent, immoral people, it was violent people being oppressed by other violent people who were just better at violence.

Of course I believe, as much as possible, people shouldn't live by the sword today and that we should try to find the most equitable solutions we can to the current state of affairs. The history should be known and taught as accurately and objectively as possible acknowledging all atrocities that were committed and the sufferings of all people involved.

IMO at least, the 'stolen land' trope misleads more than it enlightens in this regard though.

I can't really add anymore to my argument, but I appreciate the interesting discussion!
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
New Zealand was completely different. Europeans were attracted for financial reasons (eg. seals) and it was only after trading colonies, hunting operations, etc, were established that the Brits decided to establish NZ as an official British colony, both for the reason of establishing order, and better trade, as well as a way of ensuring French Pacific explorers didn't get big ideas about claiming NZ for France.

Was it really though, in perhaps a more primary sense that the settlement incentive was looking to 'solve a problem that they couldn't solve back at home.' In both cases, their society's growth or structural demands caused them to reach for an external resource. A place to put the convicts, a place to chase the gold, a place to hunt. A need that can't be filled at home, and 'hope' to be chased elsewhere, which often caused pain to whole other foreign societies, and would not satisfy the settling european in the end anyway, ridden now as he is with guilt
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The problem with this is how far back do you go?
Take the UK, we are descendants of Anglo Saxons, but before that were Celts, Pics, etc. The Romans were over here for many years.
200-years ago and before it was the way of the world.

Well I'm not certain the romans really wanted to repopulate the place that much, whereas that might have been the stylistic choice of other groups. I could be wrong, and it seems like it's debated a lot, regarding how much actual settlement was added to that area, by each conquering group.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Littered with false promises and broken treaties, the story of how colonials treated indigenous people in North America is absolutely appalling to anyone with even a grain of empathy. In some places in the Americas, this continues to happen today.

I am particularly disturbed by the materialist dissection of the amazon rainforest, which is surely a practice that western materialism has fostered, as opposed to what seems to be the thinking espoused by indigenous tribes, which seem or seemed to want to live in reverent harmony with it. Have you read any good books on the amazon rainforest?
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I'd say that all land is stolen.
Could'a been recently or long long ago.
We might or not know from whom.
The victims & descendants might or might not be around.
Political & economic stability require accepting most
current owners as cromulent. Only "most".

Well, what actually validated the establishment of the first lot of private property on the earth? In that case, it wasn't 'stolen,' but it was likely hoarded, at minimum, using validation from either raw power or some kind of supposed 'divine proclamation.' Some of the will to have it probably also comes from the territoriality in our shared primate animal instinct. Primates are usually kind of territorial
 
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