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Logic vs Belief

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
There is a problem with that-- The discovery of atoms (I got an A in Chemistry), and all those other things doesn't disprove God to me. I can't deny that it disproves God to a lot of other folks but not to me.

I don't think science and religion really contradict each other, and neither are they compatible or incompatible. They just are not related.
You're right, you can't use science to prove or disprove God Himself (or Herself, or Themselves or Itself) but what I was thinking of when I wrote the above were other more tangible beliefs, like Young Earth Creationism or Suraj's moon landing denial thingy.

If I believed whole heartedly that rain was caused by windows in the sky opening to let water through from above, and then someone showed me a cloud forming and then releasing rain but I refused to accept what I was seeing - that's the kind of belief that can cause cognitive dissonance (which is when you know something to be untrue but force yourself to believe in it anyway) which can lead to mental anguish.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
People will always see what they want to see and not see what they don't want to see. Someone can look at something straight on and still decide not to see it (some people may call it willful ignorance). I am beginning to think that this is human nature for the most part.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
People will always see what they want to see and not see what they don't want to see. Someone can look at something straight on and still decide not to see it (some people may call it willful ignorance). I am beginning to think that this is human nature for the most part.
I think you're right.
 
There is a problem with that-- The discovery of atoms (I got an A in Chemistry), and all those other things doesn't disprove God to me. I can't deny that it disproves God to a lot of other folks but not to me.

I don't think science and religion really contradict each other, and neither are they compatible or incompatible. They just are not related.

But they can be a battleground in regard to... the origin of humans: Creationism Vs Evolution, for instance...
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Isn't it very inconsistent, with the Prophet Mohammed ordaining that aduletry is wrong, yet supposely commiting adultery himself as said in the Hadith.

which hadith is it? could you please give the name of hadith book and hadith number? it is absolutely false.


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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It's a bit strange to think of science as "confirming" religion, really. More so when scriptures come into play, since scripture is among the oldest and more stable (hence less innovative) parts of any creed.

Science just doesn't work like that. Science is all about observing, proposing new ideas and testing them. Science that rediscovered what was written in religious texts of centuries ago would be very mediocre indeed. XIX century science is nearly all obsolete now (especially human sciences, which are the ones closer to religious matters) and very few major religions have any true scriptures written since.

And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it is possibly the best of all possible worlds. Religion's role is to inspire and motivate, not to "tell the truth". Only fundamentalists, the people who hurt religion more than any others, would even attempt to use it to such an unfitting role.

On the contrary, religion ought to learn from science (human sciences mainly - sociology, psychology, anthropology, ecology, even economy) and use that knowledge with wisdom. There is no shame in recognizing that the best ways of caring for a tradition involve learning more about how the world works. On the contrary, it is probably the best practical use of faith.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
It's a bit strange to think of science as "confirming" religion, really. More so when scriptures come into play, since scripture is among the oldest and more stable (hence less innovative) parts of any creed.

Science just doesn't work like that. Science is all about observing, proposing new ideas and testing them. Science that rediscovered what was written in religious texts of centuries ago would be very mediocre indeed. XIX century science is nearly all obsolete now (especially human sciences, which are the ones closer to religious matters) and very few major religions have any true scriptures written since.

And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it is possibly the best of all possible worlds. Religion's role is to inspire and motivate, not to "tell the truth". Only fundamentalists, the people who hurt religion more than any others, would even attempt to use it to such an unfitting role.

On the contrary, religion ought to learn from science (human sciences mainly - sociology, psychology, anthropology, ecology, even economy) and use that knowledge with wisdom. There is no shame in recognizing that the best ways of caring for a tradition involve learning more about how the world works. On the contrary, it is probably the best practical use of faith.

religion without science is unthinkable. here is an example (a work of famous Turkish Muslim) for you, dear friend.



Pirireismap.jpg



In 1929, a group of historians found an amazing map drawn on a gazelle skin. Research showed that it was a genuine document drawn in 1513 by Piri Reis, a famous admiral of the Turkish fleet in the sixteenth century.

His passion was cartography. His high rank within the Turkish navy allowed him to have a privileged access to the Imperial Library of Constantinople. The Turkish admiral admits in a series of notes on the map that he compiled and copied the data from a large number of source maps, some of which dated back to the fourth century BC or earlier.


The Controversy

The Piri Reis map shows the western coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America, and the northern coast of Antarctica. The northern coastline of Antarctica is perfectly detailed. The most puzzling however is not so much how Piri Reis managed to draw such an accurate map of the Antarctic region 300 years before it was discovered, but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.

On 6th July 1960 the U. S. Air Force responded to Prof. Charles H. Hapgood of Keene College, specifically to his request for an evaluation of the ancient Piri Reis Map:

6, July, 1960
Subject: Admiral Piri Reis Map
TO: Prof. Charles H. Hapgood
Keene College
Keene, New Hampshire

Dear Professor Hapgood,
Your request of evaluation of certain unusual features of the Piri Reis map of 1513 by this organization has been reviewed.
The claim that the lower part of the map portrays the Princess Martha Coast of Queen Maud Land, Antarctic, and the Palmer Peninsular, is reasonable. We find that this is the most logical and in all probability the correct interpretation of the map.
The geographical detail shown in the lower part of the map agrees very remarkably with the results of the seismic profile made across the top of the ice-cap by the Swedish-British Antarctic Expedition of 1949.
This indicates the coastline had been mapped before it was covered by the ice-cap.
The ice-cap in this region is now about a mile thick.
We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513.

Harold Z. Ohlmeyer Lt. Colonel, USAF Commander

Piri Reis Map

Piri Reis Map


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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Science just doesn't work like that. Science is all about observing, proposing new ideas and testing them. Science that rediscovered what was written in religious texts of centuries ago would be very mediocre indeed. XIX century science is nearly all obsolete now (especially human sciences, which are the ones closer to religious matters) and very few major religions have any true scriptures written since.

No, what you describe is a very particular method of science as known as scientific empiricism, which involves observing phenomena, testing it, forming hypothesis. If you look at modern science like Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and String theory, much of it is based on the theory and mathematics. It is closer to scientific rationalism than empiricism. The aim of science is to simply to know and creating valid methods of knowing. It is not to constantly think up ideas and test them. Today science is moving towards GUT(Grande unified theory) and is much closer to knowing everything it possibly can than it was before. Once it knows everything it will attain stability.

And that's not a bad thing. In fact, it is possibly the best of all possible worlds. Religion's role is to inspire and motivate, not to "tell the truth". Only fundamentalists, the people who hurt religion more than any others, would even attempt to use it to such an unfitting role.

No, it's your parents, teachers and friends role to inspire you :D

I really think you have a very errornous view of religion. You seem to think of religion as some kind of storehouse of made up beliefs to give us solace and justify that. Do you have any idea of how dangerous it is to make up anything you want to justify your own wants, needs etc. Thanks to science we have moved out of that age and are now making progress.

The aim of religion is to tell us the truth about reality. It concentrates on area that the physical sciences cannot, such as morality, life, the here-after. However, this does not mean it can make up whatever it wants, it too needs valid scientific means of knowing what it knows. Otherwise it has no objective-value.

The aim of religion in a society is ensure that people know the truth about morality, life, the here-after etc, so that they can realise their lifes purpose, live a good life and for there to be goodness everywhere. Therefore it matters which religion is true and which is false.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Should one be willing to drop their beliefs as soon as it is contradicted by logic?
One should first be willing to understand what logic is and what it isn't. The Orthodox Jew who tells you that HaShem created a world replete with fabricated evidence of an Old Earth may well be offering an unverifiable (if not ludicrous) explanation, but s/he is not [necessarily] being illogical.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No, what you describe is a very particular method of science as known as scientific empiricism, which involves observing phenomena, testing it, forming hypothesis. If you look at modern science like Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and String theory, much of it is based on the theory and mathematics. It is closer to scientific rationalism than empiricism. The aim of science is to simply to know and creating valid methods of knowing. It is not to constantly think up ideas and test them. Today science is moving towards GUT (Grande unified theory) and is much closer to knowing everything it possibly can than it was before. Once it knows everything it will attain stability.

That's a dangerous misrepresentation. Theory must be tested to be validated, you know.

No, it's your parents, teachers and friends role to inspire you :D

I beg your pardon? This simply does not fit in the context.

EDIT: on second reading, I see that I actually agree with what you are saying here. I just don't see it as significantly different from what I said. Religion, at its core, is an expansion and improvement of this social role that you mention. That is a needed and basic role of religion, even.

I really think you have a very erroneous view of religion. You seem to think of religion as some kind of storehouse of made up beliefs to give us solace and justify that.

Not so, Suraj. I take religion very seriously. What you just described is fundamentalist belief, which is not true religion, but a poor degeneration of it.

Proper religion does not rely on made up beliefs, and it goes way beyond simply solace and rationalizations. It is an active and bold discipline that is, in its own, very distinct way, perhaps more needed than science itself.

I'm a bit surprised by your difficulty at understanding that.

Do you have any idea of how dangerous it is to make up anything you want to justify your own wants, needs etc. Thanks to science we have moved out of that age and are now making progress.

Oh yes, I do have some idea. You bet on that.

The aim of religion is to tell us the truth about reality.

In what sense? Why should it take that role when science is the natural, perhaps the only fitting candidate?

It concentrates on area that the physical sciences cannot, such as morality, life, the here-after.

Now this I agree with. But this directly contradicts your previous sentence.

Unless you're a fundamentalist, I guess.

However, this does not mean it can make up whatever it wants, it too needs valid scientific means of knowing what it knows. Otherwise it has no objective-value.

Religion is not supposed to even aim for objective value. That is science's role, human sciences in this case. Religion deals with the subjective values and their interation and practical uses.

Theology shouldn't get out of hand and think of itself as an "alternative" human science, as it all too often does.

The aim of religion in a society is ensure that people know the truth about morality, life, the here-after etc, so that they can realise their lifes purpose, live a good life and for there to be goodness everywhere. Therefore it matters which religion is true and which is false.

I must disagree. Your association of religion with "knowing truth" simply does not convince me. On the contrary, it smells heavily of fundamentalism, or at least proto-fundamentalism.
 
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emiliano

Well-Known Member
One should first be willing to understand what logic is and what it isn't. The Orthodox Jew who tells you that HaShem created a world replete with fabricated evidence of an Old Earth may well be offering an unverifiable (if not ludicrous) explanation, but s/he is not [necessarily] being illogical.

How this grab you?
The Discipline of Logic
Human life is full of decisions, including significant choices about what to believe. Although everyone prefers to believe what is true, we often disagree with each other about what that is in particular instances. It may be that some of our most fundamental convictions in life are acquired by haphazard means rather than by the use of reason, but we all recognize that our beliefs about ourselves and the world often hang together in important ways.
If I believe that whales are mammals and that all mammals are fish, then it would also make sense for me to believe that whales are fish. Even someone who (rightly!) disagreed with my understanding of biological taxonomy could appreciate the consistent, reasonable way in which I used my mistaken beliefs as the foundation upon which to establish a new one. On the other hand, if I decide to believe that Hamlet was Danish because I believe that Hamlet was a character in a play by Shaw and that some Danes are Shavian characters, then even someone who shares my belief in the result could point out that I haven't actually provided good reasons for accepting its truth.
http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/e01.htm
Suraj has tried both reason and logic, saying that believing is God is irrational and now is on the logic thing, your questions is good one. Good luck to you in getting an answer worth continuing the discussion on. I can understand how he became I Hindu and believe in reincarnation and the caste system and that this seems reasonable to him, would I be right in saying that his believe are completely irrational and should dropped it immediately because I say it is illogical?
 

herushura

Active Member
I have noticed many times how people hold onto irrational beliefs(those which are made absurd by logic) even when in knowledge that their beliefs are not supported by logic. For example, certain Christian people insisting on the earth being 6000 years old, despite scientific evidence to the contrary - or some Hare Krishna people insisting that the moon landing was a hoax because its founder claimed life lived on the moon and vegetation grew there, and it was not found. This clearly indicates that there are some people who value belief more than logic.

Should one be willing to drop their beliefs as soon as it is contradicted by logic? I emphatically say Yes, but would like to see how others deal with the question.

The Bible covers a span of 6,000 years that synchronizes with the Ages of Gemini, Taurus, Aries and Pisces.

Gemini = 6380BC - Creation
Taurus = 4220BC - Adam and Eve - "Adam = Bootes, Eve = Virgo" Cherubim = Taurus
Aries = 2160BC - Abraham and Moses - Abraham - Abram - Ram/Aries
Pisces - 1AD - Jesus​

Gemini with its air element represents the Spirit of God moving over the waters in Genesis 1:2. Gemini is located above the constellation Orion. To the ancient Egyptians, Orion was Osiris, the god of light. So when God created light, he created Orion. To the Hebrews, light represented God's power.
Logical or What
 
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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
That's a dangerous misrepresentation. Theory must be tested to be validated

Yep, but that is not what I said. I said the job of science is to know, it isn't to come up with theories all the time. Once it knows it's done its job.

In what sense? Why should it take that role when science is the natural, perhaps the only fitting candidate?


Quote:
It concentrates on area that the physical sciences cannot, such as morality, life, the here-after.
Now this I agree with. But this directly contradicts your previous sentence.

Unless you're a fundamentalist, I guess.

No it doesn't. If the job of physical science is to know about the outer world, the job of religion is to know the inner the world. They can both be sciences - a science is simply a valid and systematic means of knowing.

If religion is not scientific is not a valid means of knowing. Whatever it says is as good as fairytales.

Religion is not supposed to even aim for objective value. That is science's role, human sciences in this case. Religion deals with the subjective values and their interation and practical uses.

Theology shouldn't get out of hand and think of itself as an "alternative" human science, as it all too often does.

Of course religion needs to aim for the truth. It has no value otherwise. A person needs to know why shouldn't he sin, otherwise they will sin. If by doing so they end up in hell in the here-after, then the necessity for knowing the truth from the beginning becomes clear.

Questions like what is moral and not moral, what is the purpose of life, how can one attain peace and happiness, what is reality are important questions and their answers can shape our life here. If we don't have valid answers to these questions, then society would be in a mess.

Consider one of the questions: How do we attain happiness?

If religion x answers saying you attain happiness through war and conquest. Then realise just how destructive that is to society and to the individual in society. But with the kind of dangerous philosophy you are telling here that religion is not about truth it it just for our needs, this is valid. But we know it is not valid, we know that war and conquest does not bring happiness, it brings great suffering. So we can say that that religion x is false and reject it. To counter such a religion we need another religion y that teaches us the truth about happiness. If religion y says that we can gain happiness through loving one another like our own. Then realise just how beneficial that is to the society and to the individuals in society. Wouldn't you want to be born in a society where everybody loves each other like their own? It is also true that happiness does come from love. Therefore religion y is true.

So religion can know the truth and it is possible to have true and false beliefs in a religion and true and false religions. A religion that tells you to loot, maim, kill and rape innocents cannot be a true religion. Many of us would intuitively accept that looting, maiming, killing innocent people is wrong ---- but what about people who want proof.

How do I convince for example an atheist and materialist not to commit suicide? If they don't believe in an afterlife, if they do not believe that something will judge them, if they don't believe in sin, then what is stopping them?
Similarly, how do I convince a terrorist not to commit an attack, if he believes that he will be awarded 1000 virgins in heaven for his deed?

I cannot convince them unless I can show that it is objectively true that the atheist-materialist will actually condemn themselves to suffering in the life here-after by commiting suicide, for which I need to convince them that the here-after exists, that it's not lights out after death. I cannot convince the terrorist, unless I can show that their action is immoral and will lead to condemnation in the here-after.

If a religion cannot answer any of the above then it is useless. If a religion cannot tell us truth is is useless. If a religions 'truth' cannt stand up to scrutiny, then it is useless.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yep, but that is not what I said. I said the job of science is to know, it isn't to come up with theories all the time. Once it knows it's done its job.

I stand by what I said. You're misunderstanding science's function.

No it doesn't. If the job of physical science is to know about the outer world, the job of religion is to know the inner the world. They can both be sciences - a science is simply a valid and systematic means of knowing.

If religion is not scientific is not a valid means of knowing. Whatever it says is as good as fairytales.

Again, I must disagree. Not all valid knowledge is scientific, nor should it be.

Science must follow a solid episthemology, which religion doesn't - and shouldn't actually attempt to. It's supposed to have other priorities.

Of course religion needs to aim for the truth.

Truth, certainly. Objectivity, however? I don't think so. Religion is all about people (subjects) and that's how it should be.

(...)

So religion can know the truth and it is possible to have true and false beliefs in a religion and true and false religions. A religion that tells you to loot, maim, kill and rape innocents cannot be a true religion. Many of us would intuitively accept that looting, maiming, killing innocent people is wrong ---- but what about people who want proof.

Again, I don't think the idea of a true religion makes as much sense as that of a well practiced religion. Religion as a source of truth (as opposed to sound practice and good results) is just a bizarre idea that leads into making religion either nocive by way of fundamentalism or redundant due to existence of science.

How do I convince for example an atheist and materialist not to commit suicide? If they don't believe in an afterlife, if they do not believe that something will judge them, if they don't believe in sin, then what is stopping them?

Is this a direct question? I just happen to know the answer, since I belong to this very category of people.

Similarly, how do I convince a terrorist not to commit an attack, if he believes that he will be awarded 1000 virgins in heaven for his deed?

By teaching him responsible religious practice, I suppose.

I cannot convince them unless I can show that it is objectively true that the atheist-materialist will actually condemn themselves to suffering in the life here-after by commiting suicide,

Wrong. We atheists can be and are convinced by other, more concrete and sound reasons.

 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If the job of physical science is to know about the outer world, the job of religion is to know the inner the world. They can both be sciences - a science is simply a valid and systematic means of knowing. If religion is not scientific is not a valid means of knowing.
You think your religion scientific? Show me its intersubjectively verifiable theories under peer review. :rolleyes: You truly haven't a clue what you're babbling about.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I stand by what I said. You're misunderstanding science's function.

No, I'm not. Science is a means to know about the world. Do you even know what the word science means?

Again, I must disagree. Not all valid knowledge is scientific, nor should it be.

Nope, all valid things we know are indeed scientific. They are either based on hard empirical fact or on rational proof, or a combination.

Truth, certainly. Objectivity, however? I don't think so. Religion is all about people (subjects) and that's how it should be.

You are confused. A truth is an objective thing, otherwise it is not a truth, it is a belief :)

Again, I don't think the idea of a true religion makes as much sense as that of a well practiced religion. Religion as a source of truth (as opposed to sound practice and good results) is just a bizarre idea that leads into making religion either nocive by way of fundamentalism or redundant due to existence of science.

You have very errornous and contradictory thoughts on religion. If a religion has sound practice and good results, won't they first have to established to be sound and good i.e, true?

Is this a direct question? I just happen to know the answer, since I belong to this very category of people.

You cannot convince someone who is determined to commot suicide, because they believe it's lights off. You can tell them all kind of rheotric, "oh, but that would be cowardly, turning back on life" and they will retort, "Who cares, I'll be dead anyway" The ONLY way to convince them is to prove to them they won't be dead.

By teaching him responsible religious practice, I suppose.

Nope, because they are already convinced that they are going to get 1000 virgins for their deed. The only way to to convince them is to actually prove to them that they are not going to get to 1000 virgins, they are in fact going to be condemned. Once that is proven they won't carry through with their act.

Wrong. We atheists can be and are convinced by other, more concrete and sound reasons.

Well there you go ---- concrete and sound reason. That actually has convincing power and they can arrive at truth. Thus a religion that can do the same and convince the atheist with concrete and sound reason, that there is a life hereafter, can convince an atheist determined to commit suicide because they believe there is none thereafter.

In the Gita Krishna uses sound reason to make Arjuna fight. Arjuna throws one argument after the other on why fighting is not good. To answer his questions Krishna pretty much reveals the whole nature and workings of reality to Arjuna to convince him that fighting is OK.

If religion does not have the power to answer our questions it is useless. We need to know the truth and won't settle for anything less than the truth. Otherwise, going by your confused philosophy, one could just turn and say, "Thanks for your suggestion, but as you don't know the truth yourself, I care little for your opinion"
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No point in going on, Suraj. You're insisting on using poor and inadequate definitions of key words, such as truth, science and religion.

Not to mention having a completely delusional understanding of Atheists :)
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
That is fair enough Luis. We do not agree.

I am using the correct definitions for truth, science and religion. It is you who have a confused understanding of what they are. Why would anyone want to accept a religion without knowing it is true? Do you seriously think people become Christians without accepting Jesus is true? Or become Muslim without accepting Allah is true? Or accept Buddhism without accepting "Buddhahood"? Everybody thinks their religion is true :) Nobody joins a religion if they think it is possibly false.
 
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