Logic VS, Faith

[ppp]

If you have evidence, you have knowledge, not belief.

Knowledge is just a label for a degree of belief. Knowledge is still belief.

 

[halbhh]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

Speaking from experience and having read fully through the common bible, it turns out that Christianity at least is totally logical. (there are some popular misconceptions/misrepresentations that can make it seem otherwise, but the actual text is fully logical. Also, the reason I began to take it seriously is that after extensive and varied experiment I found the rules for living Christ gave work better than competing ideas about how to live well -- they actually improve one's life vs other ways of living, I found, after trying out a lot of ideas and practices from many traditions and philosophies)

 

[SalixIncendium]

Knowledge is just a label for a degree of belief. Knowledge is still belief.

Your definition? Or do you have an agree upon definition to back this up?

 

[halbhh]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

The answer about the miracles though is 2 fold. I did not believe them, as I could not observe them. But after one happened personally, then I had to allow it could be possible, and then after another, I had to accept the likelihood those things happened just as in the text, despite my strong inclination to withhold from conclusions. That moving from being sure they were impossible to being unsure was merely a more scientific attitude of course. Science doesn't try to assert unknowns as facts.

 

[joe1776]

If you have evidence, you have knowledge, not belief.

Let's reverse that. If you believe that God exists, but have no evidence, is it also true that you don't KNOW God exists?

Isn't "knowledge" just a word summing up what you believe about anything?

 

[PureX]

I would say that 'belief' is the self-assumed presumption that one's 'knowledge' is correct. The difference may be subtle, but it's significant.

 

[Eyes to See]

Let's reverse that. If you believe that God exists, but have no evidence, is it also true that you don't KNOW God exists?

Isn't "knowledge" just a word summing up what you believe about anything?

That is a good point. In fact the Bible does refer to "falsely called knowledge" and "accurate knowledge." Knowledge is knowing facts. But if you know something that you think is true but in fact it is false then it is false knowledge.

And only accurate knowledge leads to life.

 

[ppp]

Speaking from experience and having read fully through the common bible, it turns out that Christianity at least is totally logical. (there are some popular misconceptions/misrepresentations that can make it seem otherwise, but the actual text is fully logical. Also, the reason I began to take it seriously is that after extensive and varied experiment I found the rules for living Christ gave work better than competing ideas about how to live well -- they actually improve one's life vs other ways of living, I found, after trying out a lot of ideas and practices from many traditions and philosophies)

Speaking from experience and having read through multiple versions of the Bible multiple Bibles (as well as various support references such as Strong's Concordance), it turns out that Christianity is neither logically valid, nor sound. Moreover, following many (though not all) of the edicts, commandments, tenets and laws in the Bible lead to an immoral society. God does not measure up to my minimum moral standard.

 

[ppp]

Your definition? Or do you have an agree upon definition to back this up?

Are you asking that I provide authorization for my position, rather than rational justification?

 

[joe1776]

I would say that 'belief' is the self-assumed presumption that one's 'knowledge' is correct. The difference may be subtle, but it's significant.

That's true. However, accepting a belief because you were told what to believe by an authority figure, and accepting a belief because that authority offered credible evidence is not a subtle difference at all.

 

[halbhh]

Speaking from experience and having read through multiple versions of the Bible multiple Bibles (as well as various support references such as Strong's Concordance), it turns out that Christianity is neither logically valid, nor sound. Moreover, following many (though not all) of the edicts, commandments, tenets and laws in the Bible lead to an immoral society. God does not measure up to my minimum moral standard.

You've merely stated an prejudice unless you get specific with a concrete instance. (But that does risk that you might state a false conception that can be shown unalike to the full context text)

 

[ppp]

I would say that 'belief' is the self-assumed presumption that one's 'knowledge' is correct. The difference may be subtle, but it's significant.

Nah. Belief is just being convinced, irrespective of the reason that you are convinced.

 

[QuestioningMind]

If you have evidence, you have knowledge, not belief.

If you have evidence you have knowledge... but you also have belief. Your belief can be based on knowledge. How can you have knowledge that the Earth orbits the sun, but at the same time lack any belief that the Earth orbits the sun?

 

[ppp]

You've merely stated an prejudice unless you get specific with a concrete instance.

And I will point out that I provided as concrete an example as you did in your stated prejudice. You are trying to hold me to standards that you did not meet. So, halbhh...right back at you.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Let's reverse that. If you believe that God exists, but have no evidence, is it also true that you don't KNOW God exists?

Absolutely. This only supports my argument that belief is different from knowedge.

Isn't "knowledge" just a word summing up what you believe about anything?

No.

 

[Nakosis]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

IMO, the faith been asked for is in the person of Jesus Christ or really the instruction he provided. Not really in the account of him provided by others.

Jesus is the teacher. You the ignorant student. You don't know the truth of what is being taught. So you the student needs to have faith in the teacher in order to follow their teaching.

Faith is not supposed to be a permanent condition. By following what is taught you should learn the truth yourself after placing your faith in the teacher and following their instructions.
Faith in Jesus, faith in what he taught so you can learn the truth of what is being taught for yourself.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Are you asking that I provide authorization for my position, rather than rational justification?

Are you in the habit of twisting questions to turn an argument in your favor?

I asked you if this was your definition or an agreed upon definition (as in a dictionary). Why can't you just answer the question instead of misrepresenting it?

 

[halbhh]

And I will point out that provided as concrete an example as you did in your stated prejudice. You are trying to hold me to standards that you did not meet. So, halbhh...right back at you.

What was a rule for living I tested extensively?

Christ stated that "Love your neighbor as yourself" was one of the 2 great commandments (on how to live life).

I found this as an atheist reading various great thinkers about how to live life better.

I realized I could test this rule out, actually find out whether it worked better than other ways, or less well.

My standard way to live for many years (in many places) had been to choose a few select friends, 1 to 3 people, and focus entirely on them, and keep all other people at a polite distance.

I tried the rule with my immediate next door neighbors on both sides, and the results were far better than anything I imagined possible. I thought I was lucky, and continued to test it over and over in new situations and places, trying to find any situation where it would fail.

Failure would be if I found someone that didn't respond. But soon I put an ever more strict and difficult test on it. I re-defined failure to be even if I didn't like the experience myself (a much tougher standard in my case actually, as I'm introverted and love to read and hear music and many other things I'd liked far better than the company of most people I'd met, so the experience would have to best that, which isn't at all easy)

It has always given surprisingly good results, to my benefit. Better than the other ways of relating to most people I'd tried, and better even than the very enjoyable time to myself I'd preferred.

So, that's experimental see. You'd need no faith at all to try it. You'd need a curiosity or scientific attitude or something to help motivate you.

 

[ppp]

Are you in the habit of twisting questions to turn an argument in your favor?

No. Are you?

I asked you if this was your definition or an agreed upon definition (as in a dictionary). Why can't you just answer the question instead of misrepresenting it?

That is false.. Had you asked if I had a dictionary definition, I would have said, No, I have not looked for one. But what you asked was, "Or do you have an agree upon definition to back this up?" Which makes no sense, because an agreed upon definition about what something is, would not back up the validity of that definition. Merely the fact that it is used that way.

 

[1213]

Belief in any religion requires faith. My problem has always been that so much of religion is not logical. The different miracles for example defy logic. The Virgin Birth for example.
The Four Gospels Record 37 Miracles. As A Christian Do You Believe Them?

I believe and I would like to know, how miracles defies logic?