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Logic vs Religion

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
The Christian's position on this is that if you know the truth, say it often until it is proven incorrect or rejected by all thinking creatures.

Although this sounds pious, it's actually biblically mistaken. The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense of your hope when other people ask. The implication is that we have the truth, but we don't just simply shout it from the rooftops. We live our lives and hold to our principles even under pain of social ostracism or other persecution. This behavior is bound to provoke questions. At that time, we are to be prepared to explain ourselves.

There's a time and a place for preaching, too. But that time is not just anytime, and that place is not everywhere.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Hello,

There are a couple ways I could understand 'learned'. I think you mean learned as a techne and thereby a construct. If I've misunderstood, let me know.

Short answer: logic is a construct.

Longer answer: 'Discovered' I take as similar to when Columbus bumped into San Salvador and 'learned' I take as made, as in building the Great Wall of China. If we consider the discovered option the following comes to the fore. To discover a thing suggests that thing preexisting the discoverer.* Logic, different from San Salvador, is a concept: an idea. Therefore, if one opts for logic preexisting its discoverer, the questions is how does a concept preexist its conception? The issue quickly moves into a apparent fallacy of reification (whereby one errs in assuming an idea has ontic standing). This brings up a host of metaphysical and epistemic problems.

The alternative is to understand logic as something made. If one looks at the history of logic a clear intellectual pedigree is evident. From modern logicians, to Turing, to Frege, to Leibniz, to Aristotle's formalizations, back to Parmenides who made the critical break with Pythagorean mystical and numerological understanding. From this approach one can see the development of an idea, how it changed, who made the change(s) and the product of the same. This approach also allows one to compare/contrast (and thus understand) the development of logic with other intellectual systems that moved in other directions. It seems understanding logic as a construct is the clearer and less problematic coarse.

*Of course, one can discover a thing made as in Marco Polo coming to the Great Wall, but if we keep things in their ultimate sense, then a construct, by definition, must have been made by someone.


Thanks for your response. I found the answer for which I was looking.
My original comment was a compliment that you have done some research for your Ideas. By learned I mean you have read things. I am interested in how a person arrives at opinions and ideas. Sometimes people have an opinion of what God is and consequentially, his research attempts to find evidence to prove his opinion is correct. Others may first find evidence and concludes from the evidence that there must be a God which is like a certain entity.

It sounds like you would agree with Hume who stated reason is often the hand maid of the passions, wherein people believe a certain thing and then go about trying to justify their penchants.


When I heard the atheist on this thread talking about all the different logics, I thought they were saying that they had come up with a new system of logic to challenge and rebuff believers' concept of God.


I see. I haven't seen that argument. I think the more common view would be something akin to: logic is rational, religion is irrational, therefore the two are distinct. Of course, as I noted in my first post in the thread, I think such a positioning rests on a false dichotomy as it fails to appreciate the formal character of logic which can contain any content: religious, mythical, the fantastic etc.


The atheist have an interest in coming up with a new logical system because universal and eternal rules of logic is evidence that says there is a God. It is the greatest proof that God does exist... Atheist will always be the first to deny that there is such a thing as eternal rules of logic.


What does this mean? Does this mean you believe say modus ponens, for example, has always existed (and thereby has ontic standing) even prior to its first conceptualization of affirming the antecedent? Or, does this mean that modus ponens simply has a chronological symmetry so that if a fellow like you or I use it, or someone in the 12th Century or a Stoic in the 1st Century: we all can know the same necessity? Or, are you opting for a kind of Berkeleyian conception?
 

GadFly

Active Member
Although this sounds pious, it's actually biblically mistaken. The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense of your hope when other people ask. The implication is that we have the truth, but we don't just simply shout it from the rooftops. We live our lives and hold to our principles even under pain of social ostracism or other persecution. This behavior is bound to provoke questions. At that time, we are to be prepared to explain ourselves.

There's a time and a place for preaching, too. But that time is not just anytime, and that place is not everywhere.

If you knew the GadFly, you would never think he was pious. You must come from the religious left being an Anglican and the position from which you base your opinion of me. It is a good thing to believe in Christ whether you are liberal or conservative in your faith. Our vision on how the Gospel is to be shared with the world is viewed by our liberal or conservative leanings. I sincerely hope you are not seriously embarrassed with my enthusiastic spirit in sharing the truth of our common religion.

Respectively, I submit that you are biblically mistaken with an opinion that Christians should piously wait until unbelievers come to church or ask for our opinion. Peter could not resist the opportunity to preach in Christ's name in the temple to the Jew and Priest who definitely did not want to hear the truth. Paul, at Mars Hill, definitely took advantage of the rules of debate and discussion, to force his opinion on the Greeks. There Paul preached Jesus Christ was the unknown God. These fellows did every thing they could to sneak in the Gospel of Christ. Brother, where is the battle and warfare in you that Paul talked about? If Christians of the 1st. century had waited like you suggest, the word would have died out 1000's of years ago.

Brother don't be reluctant to trade your church pew for a rooftop. You'll still not be popular and you still will be required to live a good life life, but you will be doing what Christ told you to do. Go, don't set.
God bless
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
:shout Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.......

Let's hold each other up in prayer and moral support.......


Philosophy by Charity
You get much respect, If you give much respect :yes:
 

andys

Andys
Storm replies: "The Easter Bunny is not a valid comparison to God".

After some reflection, I agree. A better example is Santa Clause. Now we have the white beard and a book that substantiates his existence with the same veracity as the Bible: "The Night Before Christmas."

All this debate about "Logic" and 'Faith" really boils down to whether one chooses to believe in Santa Clause, or whether one's brain has matured sufficiently to embrace reason.
 

andys

Andys
Dunemeister writes:
"The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense of your hope when other people ask."

Well, I'm asking. All I encounter is double talk and mumbo jumbo. See my post to Storm equating belief in Santa Clause to belief in a god. My foot is still tapping on the floor awaiting the slightest shred of rational evidence to support the empty cry of the faithful, "God exists—my Bible ("The Night Before Christmas") says so!

Snore.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Storm replies: "The Easter Bunny is not a valid comparison to God".

After some reflection, I agree. A better example is Santa Clause. Now we have the white beard and a book that substantiates his existence with the same veracity as the Bible: "The night Before Christmas."

All this debate about "Logic" and 'Faith" really boils down to whether one chooses to believe in Santa Clause, or whether one's brain has matured sufficiently to embracing reason.
:rolleyes:
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Dunemeister writes:
"The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense of your hope when other people ask."

Well, I'm asking. All I encounter is double talk and mumbo jumbo. See my post to Storm equating belief in Santa Clause to belief in a god. My foot is still tapping on the floor awaiting the slightest shred of rational evidence to support the empty cry of the faithful, "God exists—my Bible ("The Night Before Christmas") says so!

Snore.

This can't possibly be true. Lots of Christians have provided lots of evidence and sound rational argument to support their case. The fact that you disagree with it is not necessarily anything against it. Get over you.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
If you knew the GadFly, you would never think he was pious. You must come from the religious left being an Anglican and the position from which you base your opinion of me. It is a good thing to believe in Christ whether you are liberal or conservative in your faith. Our vision on how the Gospel is to be shared with the world is viewed by our liberal or conservative leanings. I sincerely hope you are not seriously embarrassed with my enthusiastic spirit in sharing the truth of our common religion.

Respectively, I submit that you are biblically mistaken with an opinion that Christians should piously wait until unbelievers come to church or ask for our opinion. Peter could not resist the opportunity to preach in Christ's name in the temple to the Jew and Priest who definitely did not want to hear the truth. Paul, at Mars Hill, definitely took advantage of the rules of debate and discussion, to force his opinion on the Greeks. There Paul preached Jesus Christ was the unknown God. These fellows did every thing they could to sneak in the Gospel of Christ. Brother, where is the battle and warfare in you that Paul talked about? If Christians of the 1st. century had waited like you suggest, the word would have died out 1000's of years ago.

Brother don't be reluctant to trade your church pew for a rooftop. You'll still not be popular and you still will be required to live a good life life, but you will be doing what Christ told you to do. Go, don't set.
God bless

I'm certainly not embarrassed by it. I take no issue with preaching. I just think that there are times and places. Paul was INVITED to speak at Mars Hill. But of course, he made the most of opportunities. He preached in public squares. However, that sort of activity was expected at public squares. So although Paul was zealous, and we ought to follow his example, I see him using lots of restraint, restraint based on a respect for the society he was working in. A respect he held despite his desire to convert it.

And despite my Anglican affiliation, I'm fully orthodox in belief and practice. Anglicans are an unruly bunch!
 

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
Storm replies: "The Easter Bunny is not a valid comparison to God".

After some reflection, I agree. A better example is Santa Clause. Now we have the white beard and a book that substantiates his existence with the same veracity as the Bible: "The night Before Christmas."

All this debate about "Logic" and 'Faith" really boils down to whether one chooses to believe in Santa Clause, or whether one's brain has matured sufficiently to embracing reason.

So now your calling people who believe in God Immature? We've been through this before just because a person believes in God does not mean they are irrational or that they have "abandoned reason" as you put it. Can you provide any evidence to back up any of your Ad hominems. You claim to be a man of logic and reason and yet you have been guilty of committing this logical fallacy many times over. Not to mention the numerous generalizations in your arguments which is also a logical fallacy. And your confusing correlation with causation.... need I go on. For someone who claims to be so logical and reasonable you sure do commit a lot of logical fallacies.:rolleyes:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... just because a person believes in God does not mean they are irrational or that they have "abandoned reason" as you put it.
Absolutely true. On the other hand, should one claim to believe in Thor and offer as rationale the claim that the Poetic Edda is God inspired, then ...
 

andys

Andys
Jay
Replying to my comparison that Belief in god is just like belief in Santa, your only retort is, "It's a childish comparison".

Well both are equally childish beliefs. I see no major difference. They're equally silly, equally self-serving, equally unsubstantiated. Childish? Absolutely!
(Foot still tapping...)
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Jay
Replying to my comparison that Belief in god is just like belief in Santa, your only retort is, "It's a childish comparison".

Well both are equally childish beliefs. I see no major difference. They're equally silly, equally self-serving, equally unsubstantiated. Childish? Absolutely!
(Foot still tapping...)
Then you have a positively infantile understanding of God.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Jay
Replying to my comparison that Belief in god is just like belief in Santa, your only retort is, "It's a childish comparison".
It's a childish comparison. It also requires a particularly adolescent admixture of arrogance and ignorance to equate the theology of a Spinoza or Whitehead or Henry Nelson Wieman or Harold Kushner with the belief in Santa Clause.
 

andys

Andys
Dunemeister writes:
"The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense...when other people ask."

But when I ask all I get is the old sidetrack reply "Lots of Christians have provided lots of evidence and sound rational argument to support their case."

What IS their case? My tapping foot is wearing out the linoleum.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Dunemeister writes:
"The Christian position is to always be ready to give a defense...when other people ask."

But when I ask all I get is the old sidetrack reply "Lots of Christians have provided lots of evidence and sound rational argument to support their case."

What IS their case? My tapping foot is wearing out the linoleum.
Look in the mirror.
 
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