Logic vs Religion

[Magic Man]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm also welcome to think it's a logical arguement. Logic is synonomous with reasoning. It is very reasonable to say that the universe is so beautiful and so symetrical and so orderly that it is a logical conclusion that an artistic creator had a hand in it's design. I do not see what many other possibilities there are, maybe you could enlighten me.

Yes, you can think that, but it's a flawed interpretation of logic. The universe could just be the result of an accident, and the formation of the stars and planets could just be the result of natural unintelligent forces like gravity and nuclear forces. That is just as valid a hypothesis from looking at the the universe as a god creating it all is.

 

[pray4me]

In your opinion is mankind the greatest living being then? Mankind creates or intelligently designs. If there were indeed no God and there is no superior race of aliens out there somewhere then this would be true, right? Logically

 

[Magic Man]

In your opinion is mankind the greatest living being then? Mankind creates or intelligently designs. If there were indeed no God and there is no superior race of aliens out there somewhere then this would be true, right? Logically

That depends on your definition of "greatest". Generally, I would say yes, if there are no other beings anywhere else in the universe who have advanced beyond what we have accomplished, I personally would rule us as the most advanced. What does that prove to you?

 

[pray4me]

It seems a very haughty thought especially since we (as a species) are not even above murdering each other over possesions. If you think most people are take a look at what happens when there is a power outage. (looting, rioting etc) If several billion years of evolution produced us how many more years of evolution is it going to take before there is a completely civilized society? Evolution makes no sense to me at all. It seems rather a way of being egocentrical. By thinking that we are the ultimate, the most evolved species.

I know some people who believe in a God think that we are the ultimate of his creation but I'm not so sure. In my opinion, we are not necessarily the only intelligent creation in the universe. Perhaps in our solar system, as I have seen no evidence of life on any of the other planets orbiting our sun.

 

[Magic Man]

It seems a very haughty thought especially since we (as a species) are not even above murdering each other over possesions. If you think most people are take a look at what happens when there is a power outage. (looting, rioting etc) If several billion years of evolution produced us how many more years of evolution is it going to take before there is a completely civilized society? Evolution makes no sense to me at all. It seems rather a way of being egocentrical. By thinking that we are the ultimate, the most evolved species.

I know some people who believe in a God think that we are the ultimate of his creation but I'm not so sure. In my opinion, we are not necessarily the only intelligent creation in the universe. Perhaps in our solar system, as I have seen no evidence of life on any of the other planets orbiting our sun.

I'm not saying that we're perfect, or that we're as evolved as we should be. We could definitely use more work. But, as of now, unless there are aliens out there that have gone beyond what we have, we are the best that there is. It's not arrogant, just a logical conclusion from the facts we have. Just because I think we're the most advanced beings doesn't imply that I think we're all that great. George Bush isn't a very good president, but people seemed to think he was the best of what's available.

 

[pray4me]

only the people that voted for him, I didn't!

 

[Dunemeister]

I'm not saying that we're perfect, or that we're as evolved as we should be. We could definitely use more work.

This assumes that there's a goal of evolution beyond the tossing about of genes. Or that there's some sort of ethical standard evolution ought to measure up to. I'm skeptical on both points. If the goal of evolution is to produce a species capable of getting their gonads in the right places at the right times to keep the species upnrunning, I'd say evolution has done a spot-on job with us. At least, it's done what it's supposed to have done. Nature's ethics are ruthless.

 

[Magic Man]

This assumes that there's a goal of evolution beyond the tossing about of genes. Or that there's some sort of ethical standard evolution ought to measure up to. I'm skeptical on both points. If the goal of evolution is to produce a species capable of getting their gonads in the right places at the right times to keep the species upnrunning, I'd say evolution has done a spot-on job with us. At least, it's done what it's supposed to have done. Nature's ethics are ruthless.

That's true. I didn't mean that nature had a purpose for us. For the goal that most of us share, we would need more work, though. But that's purely of our own construction, nothing inherent in nature.

 

[gotsoul]

Assamualaykum..

Ask anyone the question: "Do u believe in God?" and you are sure to recieve a variety of answers. The question should be "What do you believe about God?"

Think about this, If there is a creation, there must be a Creator, if there is a Creator, He must be the Sustainer. The Creator cannot create Himself. If He is the sole Creator/Sustainer, He must be ONE.

In other word, God must be ONE. Otherwise we would see great differences and competition between the gods if there were one -- Alone.

Do we agree that this is a creation? Or do we accept that nothing came out of nothing to form this entire universe? Something does not come out of nothing. So, there must be something in existance already which created all that upon in times of need and thanksgiving. As Allah has said in His Holy Quran: "I only created you all to worship me alone."

He also says that we are all being tested by Him with regard to our wealth, families, children and social status.

There are alot of scientific explaination in the Quran that has proved God's existance.here are some of the verses.

The Quran on origin of the universe

Then He turned to heavens when it was smoke..(Quran 41:11)

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?.. (Quran 21:30)

Quran on clouds

Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then make them into a stacks, and then you see the rain comes out of it.. (Quran 24:43)

Quran about hails and lightning

..And he sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. (Quran 24:43)

Quran on deep sea and internal waves

Or (the unbelievers' state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darkness, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it... (Quran 24:40)

Quran on Human Embryonic Development

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah(leech,suspended thing,and blood clot),then We made the alaqah into a mudghah(chewed-like substance)..(Quran 23:12-14)

Quran on Cerebrum

Let him beware! If he does not stop, We will take him by the Naseyah(front of the head) a lying,sinful Naseyah (from of the head)! (Quran 96:15-16)

I hope this will answers to the Atheist. But if it still wont convinced the Atheist. Try this,

The pattern of air tubes in the Lungs of all human being s make the sentence "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" in arabic.Go on and make the research .

 

[Melissa G]

I heard a pastor being asked on a tv documentary why he believes there is a God. He said the undeniable truth that God does exist is simply to look at our world and everything in it...for example, the lakes, rivers, mountains etc. This is undeniable proof that God exists because these things couldn't exist unless created by god...it would be impossible.

It's weird because to me, this doesn't prove that God exists. I see the same things the pastor does, the beauty of the Earth, but to me, this doesn't even begin to show any proof whatsoever that God exists. Amazing how two people can see the same thing, but come up with two completely opposite opinions, huh?

The Pastor seemingly has no understandin of the geological forces that have shaped the Earth, probably he thinks it all happened in Seven Days lol.

Melissa G

 

[Popeyesays]

The Pastor seemingly has no understandin of the geological forces that have shaped the Earth, probably he thinks it all happened in Seven Days lol.

Melissa G

Yeah, plate techtonics is just the beginning of wonder. What magnificense caused the Bang and set the whole thing in motion is far more amazing. Nature is a symptom, not the condition.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Autodidact]

Think about this, If there is a creation, there must be a Creator, if there is a Creator, He must be the Sustainer. The Creator cannot create Himself. If He is the sole Creator/Sustainer, He must be ONE.

By calling the universe a "creation" you're assuming your conclusion. You don't know whether the universe is a creation or not; all that you know is that it exists. Logic does not permit you to jump from "exists" to "created."

 

[Dunemeister]

By calling the universe a "creation" you're assuming your conclusion. You don't know whether the universe is a creation or not; all that you know is that it exists. Logic does not permit you to jump from "exists" to "created."

You may not accept that the universe is a creation, but that's no bar to me or anyone else knowing it. I happen to know it.

 

[Autodidact]

You may not accept that the universe is a creation, but that's no bar to me or anyone else knowing it. I happen to know it.

How? (Try to avoid circular reasoning.)

 

[Magic Man]

You may not accept that the universe is a creation, but that's no bar to me or anyone else knowing it. I happen to know it.

That is quite a bold statement. How is it that you have figured something out that no one else has ever done?

 

[Dunemeister]

How? (Try to avoid circular reasoning.)

It's revealed to me in scripture, and the Holy Spirit witnesses to my conscience of the fact. I also take the cosmological argument as a fairly straightforward support for the idea, although my conviction is not based on that argument.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What you are observing on this thread is a real acting out of the thread. Atheist who have no belief in God or other premises for logical thinking are going bananas, name calling, miss interpreting history on the forums, and identifying what they call bad boys. Bad boys are anybody that insist on using logical arguments. Is there a conflict between logic and religion? I don't think so but if logic leads you to religion, the resident atheist are offended. Even though the atheist has not worked out an epistemology, he still attacks the believer in God as though the believer is a fool.

The atheist wants to blame religious beliefs as something cooked up and illogical, yet you rarely find an atheist who basis his actions and behavior on stable premises. Atheist are free to change rules to match their behavior and call what they do as righteousness while holding everybody else to a strict code of law. We have seen this acted out on this thread. The rules of kindness applies to everybody except the law givers themselves. Well that's atheist reasoning and that type of logic does conflict with religion. Now, there is a lot of discussion in what I have said, but I see no need for rudeness, which I am sure that will be twisted and thrown back in my face vey quickly and sarcastically. But this statement carries truth and the bite of the GadFly.

I knew it was just a matter of time before you went from having a civil dialogue with others to your classic soap box speech about atheist.

What did we ever do to you to have you so upset with us?

 

[Dunemeister]

That is quite a bold statement. How is it that you have figured something out that no one else has ever done?

I didn't "figure it out."

 

[Magic Man]

It's revealed to me in scripture, and the Holy Spirit witnesses to my conscience of the fact. I also take the cosmological argument as a fairly straightforward support for the idea, although my conviction is not based on that argument.

And how do you know that you're not just confusing the symbols? I have read the same stuff you have, and many others have, too, and have also had experiences you would describe as the Holy Spirit, and we don't see it the same way you do, which leads me to this:

I didn't "figure it out."

You must have figured it out somehow, as there are many others who have had the same experiences as you, and don't claim to know that our universe was created.

 

[Dunemeister]

And how do you know that you're not just confusing the symbols? I have read the same stuff you have, and many others have, too, and have also had experiences you would describe as the Holy Spirit, and we don't see it the same way you do

It's entirely possible I'm mistaken. But I don't believe I am.

You must have figured it out somehow, as there are many others who have had the same experiences as you, and don't claim to know that our universe was created.

Really? People have had personal encounters with the exact same Holy Spirit who is described in the canonical bible and yet believe God didn't create the universe? That's passing strange. So strange in fact that I doubt that they've actually experienced that particular Spirit. It may have been a spirit all right, but certainly not the Holy Spirit with whom I deal.