• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Logical explanation for no God

I have an interesting thought on a argument for God not existing.

Believers will say that the universe can not have created itself, there must be a creator. Well if you are admitting that something in existence must have been put into existence, you have to ask where did God come from. Wherever he came from, that entity or item must have also been created. So you can back track for eternity. This way you can come to the conclusion that it is impossible for there to be an original creator, if you submit to the fact that something in existence must be created. The universe is therefore eternal in and of itself
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
This is an argument even the most oblivious theist rarely brings up, as it is possibly the single best example of circular logic.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Interesting, yes, but it's also one that's been brought up several times.

It doesn't necessarily disprove all concepts of God; it just disproves certain concepts of God.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
It doesn't disprove anything. It proves that we have precisely no bloody clue what to think. In the absence of knowledge anything is possible. The bare fact that anything could be outside the universe is testament to the fact that we know nothing about what is outside the universe and nothing more.


"What if the universe was created?" What if? I say: "So what?" Whether or not the universe was created is trivial in the grand scheme of things. It is only ultimately relevant IF and Only IF the universe is the entirety of Reality. If there is Nothing outside of the universe; no parallel universes, no alternate planes of existence, no quantum duplications, no membrane hyperdimensions, no anything, then the universe is self-contained.

Self-contained does NOT prove eternal. How anyone could possibly make that leap of logic is beyond me. Self-contained means that the system isn't dependent upon anything else to perpetuate its existence. But it might still have been created. What if the universe were everything and it was created? Well what then?


You require creation ex nihilo. This is logically impossible as long as identity is in play. This means that you need something outside of reality (vis-a-vis) the universe to explain why there is a universe in the first place. The causal argument of "Well what created this transcendent thing that is responsible for everything" is a non-sequitur. It is absurd to ask anything about that which is outside existence.


As long as you are confining your discussion to Reality, then what created the universe might as well be asking if ET or us from the future or a parallel universe did it. This could all just be a really sophisticated AI program developed by a sentient super race from the 39th dimension.


Additionally exactly how is the possibility of infinite regress proof that there is in fact infinite regress? Yes, there is the distinct possibility that reality is eternal, uncreated, and self-contained. It would rather prefer things if it were, but what evidence do you have other than your own preferences that this is in fact the case. That it requires something which exceeds human conception or experience is Not proof of absence. That the explanation requires absurdity is also not evidence.

In logic systems are allowed to have qualities that their components do not. Reality is allowed to have an endpoint even if nothing within it does, and there isn't anything that can be said or done about this since we don't have any evidence one way or the other.

MTF
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I have an interesting thought on a argument for God not existing.

Believers will say that the universe can not have created itself, there must be a creator. Well if you are admitting that something in existence must have been put into existence, you have to ask where did God come from. Wherever he came from, that entity or item must have also been created. So you can back track for eternity. This way you can come to the conclusion that it is impossible for there to be an original creator, if you submit to the fact that something in existence must be created. The universe is therefore eternal in and of itself


What is this universe that is eternal in and of itself? Did it exist on its own, distinct from the everchanging objects that apparently make it up or not?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I have an interesting thought on a argument for God not existing.

Believers will say that the universe can not have created itself, there must be a creator. Well if you are admitting that something in existence must have been put into existence, you have to ask where did God come from. Wherever he came from, that entity or item must have also been created. So you can back track for eternity. This way you can come to the conclusion that it is impossible for there to be an original creator, if you submit to the fact that something in existence must be created. The universe is therefore eternal in and of itself

Cause and effect....a basic pronouncement of science.
For every cause there is an effect....for every effect there is a cause.

You could deny this.
But then your op falls apart.

Can something come from nothing?
If the 'void' was truly 'void'.....yes.

Can science go there?...with equation?...with repeated experiment?...no.

Can theology go there?....yes...with faith.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
What is this universe that is eternal in and of itself? Did it exist on its own, distinct from the everchanging objects that apparently make it up or not?
The universe never changes, and never will. Just because you can only see a single 3D slice of it at once doesn't say anything about reality. :D
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I have an interesting thought on a argument for God not existing.
As it turns out, it's underwhelming.

Believers will say that the universe can not have created itself, there must be a creator. Well if you are admitting that something in existence must have been put into existence, you have to ask where did God come from.
Good job pummeling your silly straw man.

The argument is not that all things must have been created, but that, in a causal world, all nature must have a cause. Therefore, either there is no First Cause or that First Cause must be preternatural. This doesn't get us to Agency but it does pose a compelling issue.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
I'll try responding to the OP, if I may. If everything needs a cause then nothing created the universe. therefore god(s) is nothing. This doesn't mean he doesn't 'exist' Only that he is immaterial and outside the universe. I guess you could say he is a part of a 'spiritual existence'. From this spiritual existence he created a different existence that we call the universe. We can only access this spiritual world after we leave the material world through death. As to where the spiritual existence came from I don't know :p
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
( -- not all opinions are created equal -- )
It's a consequence of Relativity that the universe, considered over all 4+ dimensions, is static.
I knew. I knew. You see the full 3D.:D
I might (not without a 4D eye, though) but that wouldn't be unchanging; the universe as a whole, is, however since time is a component of the universe.
I'll try responding to the OP, if I may. If everything needs a cause then nothing created the universe. therefore god(s) is nothing. This doesn't mean he doesn't 'exist'
It does, unfortunately. If you want to call God 'nothing', you either have to be very Zen-like and that nothing exists, or God can't exist. ;)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I might (not without a 4D eye, though) but that wouldn't be unchanging; the universe as a whole, is, however since time is a component of the universe.

If you might then you would not say "I might". There will not be anything separate from the first cause, which is simply beyond the System of sensually experienced Universe-Mind.

From within a system there are truths which are not amenable to be proven by mathematics or empirical sciences.

It does, unfortunately. If you want to call God 'nothing', you either have to be very Zen-like and that nothing exists, or God can't exist. ;)

It is like a car boasting "My first cause is nothing -- not existent, since i cannot experience the cause of my being"
 
Last edited:
Top