Looking for a Source about Ein Kelokeinu

[rosends]

illogical behavior is human but no excuse for doing the wrong thing.

Can you please provide me with your understanding of the halacha so you can establish the normative law and tell me what is, definitvely, the "wrong" thing in this case?

I’m just a simple congregant, so I can do whatever I want

It is sad that you think that not having a particular title absolves you from proper practice.

 

[Jake1001]

Can you please provide me with your understanding of the halacha so you can establish the normative law and tell me what is, definitvely, the "wrong" thing in this case?

It is sad that you think that not having a particular title absolves you from proper practice.

I already told you, my understanding of the Halacha is you use the dash to show respect for G-d.

My practice is proper. I’m a cross between Reformodox, Recon, Renewal (I think).

 

[rosends]

I already told you, my understanding of the Halacha is you use the dash to show respect for G-d.

OK. That isn't my understanding of Halacha nor have you brought any sources to show that your understanding is anything but whimsical, making your behavior baseless.

My practice is proper. I’m a cross between Reformodox, Recon, Renewal (I think).

And is this proper practice a result of your not having the title of rabbi? Can you show me in the teachings of these denominations that one can "do whatever he wants" if he is only a "simple congregant"? Do these denominations establish the rule that only titled clergy are bound by rules?

And if you can do "whatever you want" why are you bound by rules about the typing of a word which may or may not be a name of God in an electronic milieu which may or may not be considered permanent enough that one would worry about erasing it? Do you have a halachic thought process here?

 

[RabbiO]

OK. That isn't my understanding of Halacha nor have you brought any sources to show that your understanding is anything but whimsical, making your behavior baseless.

Here is something that @Jake1001 may find interesting and which might lead to a more nuanced conversation.
https://www.torahmusings.com/2015/07/swear-to-g-d/

 

[rosends]

Here is something that @Jake1001 may find interesting and which might lead to a more nuanced conversation.
https://www.torahmusings.com/2015/07/swear-to-g-d/

Thanks for that -- I notice, though, that that discussion doesn't even mention whether the letters appearing on a computer screen exist enough to be erased when they scroll off. There was an artcile in teh Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society years ago about files on a disk and it mentioned the screen but not ini depth.

 

[RabbiO]

@rosends -
I was more concerned about addressing @Jake1001 's Hamletian concern - To hyphen or not to hyphen, that is the question.

As to the issue you addressed, here are two Orthodox examinations.
The Weekly Internet P A R A S H A - P A G E by Mordecai Kornfeld of Har Nof, Jerusalem
So... Can You Write God’s Name On A Computer?

 

[dantech]

but now I also have the question of "Is E'K inherently and inextricably a part of the incense litany or can it be considered on its own, and if it can be separated, why not say it as the fear about missing something is limited to the incense part".

I can't answer your question but I could tell you that on Shabbat, in my shul we say a very shortened version which removed the whole ketoret. We basically said EK and then Rabbi Hananya. This was the tradition of my Rav Z"L and the tradition of his father who was Rav Rashi of Casablanca.
Obviously we are sepharadim.

 

[rosends]

I can't answer your question but I could tell you that on Shabbat, in my shul we say a very shortened version which removed the whole ketoret. We basically said EK and then Rabbi Hananya. This was the tradition of my Rav Z"L and the tradition of his father who was Rav Rashi of Casablanca.
Obviously we are sepharadim.

Exactly -- I have seen shuls do that so I'm trying to figure out if/when the inextricable connection was assumed. I can't ask a question on EK alone if it is never alone.

 

[Jake1001]

OK. That isn't my understanding of Halacha nor have you brought any sources to show that your understanding is anything but whimsical, making your behavior baseless.

*** Hi RR, by all means, tell us the Halacha.


And is this proper practice a result of your not having the title of rabbi? Can you show me in the teachings of these denominations that one can "do whatever he wants" if he is only a "simple congregant"? Do these denominations establish the rule that only titled clergy are bound by rules?

*** I expect a high standard from Clergy. Are you unable to meet that expectation?

And if you can do "whatever you want" why are you bound by rules about the typing of a word which may or may not be a name of God in an electronic milieu which may or may not be considered permanent enough that one would worry about erasing it? Do you have a halachic thought process here?

*** You’ve gotten yourself a bit confused here. The issue is respect for G-d, not electronics, permanence, etc., I think.

 

[rosends]

*** Hi RR, by all means, tell us the Halacha.

If you scroll back, you will see that I wrote, "I think the Kitzur says it is but others (IIRC) say otherwise". In other words, the normative practice is still up in the air, with authorities on both sides. Unless you have some sort of access to a definitive pronouncement, or a reason that you have decided that one side is more persuasive than the other, I have to wonder what motivates your behavior and request.

I expect a high standard from Clergy. Are you unable to meet that expectation?

What standard? And why would I have any interest in meeting your expectations about anything?

You’ve gotten yourself a bit confused here. The issue is respect for G-d, not electronics, permanence, etc., I think.

If you think this then you don't understand the halachic process or what the issues are here. If you can't discuss the issues, then there is nothing left to discuss. Let me know when you learn a little and have a grounded opinion on the underlying considerations which would drive a decision.

 

[dantech]

Why wouldn't we be allowed to write God. That's not his name, first and foremost. Secondly, when it's written digitally, even I'm Hebrew, I think it doesn't matter since it's just a bunch of pixels. If someone were to print it out, it'd be a problem.

@Jake1001 if writing God is a problem to you without the dash, then you shouldn't even scroll away from it on your screen as that would "erase" it and make it even worse, no?

 

[dybmh]

If I recall, the even deleting the data behind the scenes on the Hard Drive of the server doesn't actually erase the data. It marks the blocks to be overwritten.

@rosends, @dantech, overwriting, filling in a Divine Name is a Halachic approved remedy when it is written in error?

 

[rosends]

If I recall, the even deleting the data behind the scenes on the Hard Drive of the server doesn't actually erase the data. It marks the blocks to be overwritten.

@rosends, @dantech, overwriting, filling in a Divine Name is a Halachic approved remedy when it is written in error?

are you referring to this talmudic case?
REVIEW QUESTIONS - GITIN 20

 

[dybmh]

are you referring to this talmudic case?
REVIEW QUESTIONS - GITIN 20

no. I asked a Rabbi many years ago how to deal with the 4 letter name if it was painted as graffiti on the ground.

The answer I was given was to fill in the letters but not to erase them. The circumstances of painting the name on the ground reminds me of the concerns Jake has about disrespecting the name.

 

[Jake1001]

If you scroll back, you will see that I wrote, "I think the Kitzur says it is but others (IIRC) say otherwise". In other words, the normative practice is still up in the air, with authorities on both sides. Unless you have some sort of access to a definitive pronouncement, or a reason that you have decided that one side is more persuasive than the other, I have to wonder what motivates your behavior and request.

***My Rabbi told me.

What standard? And why would I have any interest in meeting your expectations about anything?

*** Fair question.

If you think this then you don't understand the halachic process or what the issues are here. If you can't discuss the issues, then there is nothing left to discuss. Let me know when you learn a little and have a grounded opinion on the underlying considerations which would drive a decision.

***It appears you are losing this argument because you are hurling ineuendo. I think.

.

 

[Jake1001]

Why wouldn't we be allowed to write God. That's not his name, first and foremost. Secondly, when it's written digitally, even I'm Hebrew, I think it doesn't matter since it's just a bunch of pixels. If someone were to print it out, it'd be a problem.

*** This makes some sense.

@Jake1001 if writing God is a problem to you without the dash, then you shouldn't even scroll away from it on your screen as that would "erase" it and make it even worse, no ?

*** Its no prob for me Dano. I’m a JuBu, I think. You are a zeisen yingothch.

 

[rosends]

My Rabbi told me.

So your process doesn't involve any actual research or independent thought. But if mine does, and leads me to a different conclusion somehow that doesn't live up to some phantom expectation of yours. Got it.

It appears you are losing this argument because you are hurling ineuendo. I think.

It appears you have no idea what the argument is about and would rather criticize a person than consider the facts.

 

[Jake1001]

So your process doesn't involve any actual research or independent thought. But if mine does, and leads me to a different conclusion somehow that doesn't live up to some phantom expectation of yours. Got it.

*** Good. Since you espouse a paternalistic hierarcy you should appreciate that I blindly follow the childhood advice of my demented Rabbi. I think.

It appears you have no idea what the argument is about and would rather criticize a person than consider the facts.

I understand the argument very well, RR. Hurling insults never wins. I forgive you because you are an Ordained OJ, but I cannot accept your recommendation to blindly follow dogma. I think.

.

 

[rosends]

Since you espouse a paternalistic hierarcy you should appreciate that I blindly follow the childhood advice of my demented Rabbi. I think.

I don't know why you would follow someone you say is demented, but if that works for you, have at it.

I understand the argument very well, RR. Hurling insults never wins. I forgive you because you are an Ordained OJ, but I cannot accept your recommendation to blindly follow dogma. I think.

I don't think you do as you have said "The issue is respect for G-d, not electronics, permanence, etc., I think" but the halachic argument centers around the definition of those terms and their iteration in the real world. As to what you impute as my recommendation, I don't know where you get that. I was the one specifically objecting to that while you said that you blindly follow your (demented) rabbi. You seem to be more lost than I thought.

And don't worry -- I don't crave your forgiveness.

 

[Tumah]

Because I’m an engineer, I’m pretty logical.

Because I like seared tuna, I'll link you these:

Questionable cause - Wikipedia
Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia
and also
Grandiosity - Wikipedia