Looking for arguments for the existence of God

[camanintx]

Blaise Pascal, wrote a argument for the existence of God known as "The Wager".
The wager is a critical bet.

Especially if you are betting on the wrong God.

Some may argue that the big bang was caused by a explosion of gasses and rock.

Only people who don't understand basic cosmology would argue that the Big Bang was an explosion of gasses and rock. What most people call an explosion is actually the rapid inflation of space, much like a ballon expands when you fill it up. The theory also says that matter formed about 400,000 years after the "Big Bang" so there would not have been any gasses or rock to explode.

 

[logician]

Here is mine:

Belief in a First cause who is a Spiritual, infinite, Intelligent designer who uses secondary means to create is a very strong and logical argument.

Actually, the latest cosmological theories posit an infinite multiverse implying no first cause, therefore no need for a creator god. There's also the chicken or the egg problem - what created god, was there existence before a supposed god?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Actually, the latest cosmological theories posit an infinite multiverse implying no first cause, therefore no need for a creator god. There's also the chicken or the egg problem - what created god, was there existence before a supposed god?

Multiverse theories are metaphysical because they are unfalsifiable. Even so, it does not offer a sufficienct cause fo consciouness unless it can somehow be shown that it can emerge from something in which it is entirely absent. Your second point is a non sequiturwhere God defined God as the ground of all being; i.e., not a being but being itself.

 

[crystalonyx]

Multiverse theories are metaphysical because they are unfalsifiable. Even so, it does not offer a sufficienct cause fo consciouness unless it can somehow be shown that it can emerge from something in which it is entirely absent. Your second point is a non sequiturwhere God defined God as the ground of all being; i.e., not a being but being itself.

Actually, your definition of god is unfalsifiable, I think I'll stick with the scientist's version.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Actually, your definition of god is unfalsifiable, I think I'll stick with the scientist's version.

Existence is unjustifiable? WOW! That's a new one!

 

[Willamena]

Existence is unjustifiable? WOW! That's a new one!

Unfalsifiable. And it is --existence is axiomatic.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Existence is unjustifiable? WOW! That's a new one!

I lied. It's old and childish.

Unfalsifiable. And it is --existence is axiomatic.

Said as much myself. I've said many times, "The debate isn't whether existence exists, but its nature." My saying, "Existence is unjustifiable?" was meant to emphasize the childish assumption of equating God, defined as existence itself, with something debatable.

 

[Willamena]

Said as much myself. I've said many times, "The debate isn't whether existence exists, but its nature." My saying, "Existence is unjustifiable?" was meant to emphasize the childish assumption of equating God, defined as existence itself, with something debatable.

Ah, I thought you were misquoting. My bad.

That "existence exists" is its nature.

 

[emiliano]

I never understood why someone would think that an all knowing deity would be fooled by someone believing in Him merely because it is the "safer" choice.
Or perhaps they believe that God will be ok with them believing in him for no other reason than because it is the safer choice.
Funny all the things that God will send a person to hell over, but the dishonesty in believing him for the sole purpose of saving your arse, just in case, is fine with him.

Yet these same people will also claim that there is so much meaning to the Bible that one can study it for a life time and still find new truths.
seems a bit contradictory to me.

Yes I can see that “You don’t get it“, the wager is to assess the risks or benefit of believing in God, and it proves that it is all one way with God (all for our benefit), God does not need that you believe in Him to be God, in fact you can’t give God anything, he is perfect and lacks nothing, it is us that need God to be happy and at peace, there is no risk in living this life in hope that there is God and an after life, living in Hope= happiness and peace and these are the most important thing for a rational being.:shout

 

[logician]

Yes I can see that “You don’t get it“, the wager is to assess the risks or benefit of believing in God, and it proves that it is all one way with God (all for our benefit), God does not need that you believe in Him to be God, in fact you can’t give God anything, he is perfect and lacks nothing, it is us that need God to be happy and at peace, there is no risk in living this life in hope that there is God and an after life, living in Hope= happiness and peace and these are the most important thing for a rational being.:shout

I've known plenty of people that "believed in god" that weren't happy. And some were quite mean.

 

[McBell]

Yes I can see that “You don’t get it“, the wager is to assess the risks or benefit of believing in God, and it proves that it is all one way with God (all for our benefit), God does not need that you believe in Him to be God, in fact you can’t give God anything, he is perfect and lacks nothing, it is us that need God to be happy and at peace, there is no risk in living this life in hope that there is God and an after life, living in Hope= happiness and peace and these are the most important thing for a rational being.:shout

Nice strawman.
The fact is that I do understand the wager.
I do understand the point that theists who like the wager present.
What I do not understand is the why they like the wager.
It is nothing but dishonesty.
And Something I personally do not believe any deity worth worship would approve of.
So if your deity approves of such dishonesty...

I do not "need" a deity.
I have gotten along fine with out one for quite some time.

 

[emiliano]

Nice strawman.
The fact is that I do understand the wager.
I do understand the point that theists who like the wager present.
What I do not understand is the why they like the wager.
It is nothing but dishonesty.
And Something I personally do not believe any deity worth worship would approve of.
So if your deity approves of such dishonesty...

I do not "need" a deity.
I have gotten along fine with out one for quite some time.

It is because we are rational beings, what can be more honest to our selves than choose the supreme good, God offers His Grace to all, Grace we define as unmerited favour, cannot be pay or earn it, just accepted, the roulette wheel is already in motion, we were born. I take God offer and straight away my life is changed, I am happy (because I have hope), I am worry free, at rest, who doesn’t want this?
Mestemia believers believe that God is omniscient, He does not need your counselling, we are finite being, God is infinite. Thus we know that we will never understand Him completely, we just trust him, we believe Him. You are worrying for nothing, it his Grace and He want you to take it, don’t promised anything, you have nothing to offer Him to make Him better, He is perfect.:shout
This is your bet : I do not "need" a deity.
I have gotten along fine with out one for quite some time.
It will work well for you only if there is no God or after life, if you wrong I wouldn’t like to in your skin, if I am wrong I already lived this one and only life in happiness and peace.

 

[McBell]

Mestemia believers believe that God is omniscient, He does not need your counselling, we are finite being, God is infinite. Thus we know that we will never understand Him completely, we just trust him, we believe Him. You are worrying for nothing, it his Grace and He want you to take it, don’t promised anything, you have nothing to offer Him to make Him better, He is perfect.:shout

Not all of them believe as you presented.
In fact, this is nothing more than preaching.
Please stop with the sermons.
Not only have I heard them numerous times, I have actually given them once upon a time.

When did I ever claim to be counseling God?
Or is your claim that I claimed God needs my (or anyone else's) counseling?
What is it that you assume I am worried about?
I am not worried about hell, if that is your ploy.

I am much more worried about your preaching getting you banned than I am of hell.

This is your bet : I do not "need" a deity.
I have gotten along fine with out one for quite some time.
It will work well for you only if there is no God or after life, if you wrong I wouldn’t like to in your skin, if I am wrong I already lived this one and only life in happiness and peace.

This is where you are flat out wrong.
I have not bet on anything.
The thing is, I have made my decisions and am willing to accept the consequenses.
You go right on beleiving that those who disagree with your picture of God will burn in hell.
Whatever helps you to sleep at night.

 

[emiliano]

I've known plenty of people that "believed in god" that weren't happy. And some were quite mean.

Where do you meet these peoples? One thing that we Christians learn is that we must seek God, that our happiness comes when we are in His presence, we are disturbed often, but we never feel hopeless, whenever trails and tribulations come to us, we seek God’s presence, so all in all we are for the most part happy and at peace, we are in God’s presence, when we pray, worship, when we gather at Church, when our loved one pray for us and with us, when we pray for other, but we live in this world and often our peace is disturbed at work, travelling to and from work, so we are not in His presence 24/7, but we certainly know where to run for our peace and happiness.:shout

 

[emiliano]

To Mistemia.
OK let see, You have said

“never understood why someone would think that an all knowing deity would be fooled by someone believing in Him merely because it is the "safer" choice.
Or perhaps they believe that God will be ok with them believing in him for no other reason than because it is the safer choice.

I took this as you warning God that some people may be trying to fool Him, and that is not what this is about, God know the answers that any free agent will give to His offer, those that come to Him know that He is omniscient, that He fore-knew their answer.

You say:

Funny all the things that God will send a person to hell over, but the dishonesty in believing him for the sole purpose of saving your arse, just in case, is fine with him.

I hope that you don’t start worrying about me been banned for clarifying my understanding of your response, the truth is that you attributing beliefs to our faith, that we don’t have.
You say:

What I do not understand is the why they like the wager

It is simple really, there is nothing to loose and everything to win, Salvation is God’s Grace to humanity. An unmerited give and logically any rational been will accept it.
You say:

It is nothing but dishonesty.

There you go, worrying, there are some good sermon about this one I have done some pretty good ones myself. Don’t worry about God, He just want you to make the choice to believe the unseen, to hope for what is not visible nor fully understood by you.
You bet is

“And Something I personally do not believe any deity worth worship would approve of”

what would make Him worthy of your worship? Is he bounded to have your approval?
You ask:

What is it that you assume I am worried about?

I listed the concerns that you have expressed, some people may get to heavens just because they bet on God’s existence, God may be made a fool of, He may not be worthy of your worship.
You say:

You go right on beleiving that those who disagree with your picture of God will burn in hell.

Whatever helps you to sleep at night.

Thank for your concerns, but there are no unbelievers or backsliders in my family tree so I sleep quite well.

 

[McBell]

To Mistemia.
OK let see, You have said I took this as you warning God that some people may be trying to fool Him, and that is not what this is about, God know the answers that any free agent will give to His offer, those that come to Him know that He is omniscient, that He fore-knew their answer.

You seriously take this as I am warning God?
Do you honestly believe that God reads this forum?
Who is he?

The fact is that I do not believe that the God of the Bible is omni anything.
I can use the Bible to show this.
Not that you would listen as you seem to think you got God all figured out...

You say: I hope that you don’t start worrying about me been banned for clarifying my understanding of your response, the truth is that you attributing beliefs to our faith, that we don’t have.

I may have attributed things that YOU PERSONALLY do not believe, but the fact of the matter is that you are not the spokesman for all Christians.
And I know plenty of Christians who do in fact believe the things I correctly attributed to them.
Nice try though.

You say:It is simple really, there is nothing to loose and everything to win, Salvation is God’s Grace to humanity. An unmerited give and logically any rational been will accept it.

So now I am irrational because I find it dishonest and want nothing to do with any deity who accepts such dishonest practices?
The assumptions you have to make to hold onto your box...

You say:
There you go, worrying, there are some good sermon about this one I have done some pretty good ones myself. Don’t worry about God, He just want you to make the choice to believe the unseen, to hope for what is not visible nor fully understood by you.
You bet is what would make Him worthy of your worship? Is he bounded to have your approval?

LOL
Sorry.
i was laughing so hard I literally peed my pants.
Do you honestly believe that I am worried?
In all honesty, I could care less about your deity either way.
You sad attempt at turning this into some sort guilt trip will not work.
Nice try though.

You ask:
I listed the concerns that you have expressed, some people may get to heavens just because they bet on God’s existence, God may be made a fool of, He may not be worthy of your worship.

You really do get yourself worked up over what you think I believe.
Problem is that I will never choose a deity that embraces dishonesty.
Pascals Wager is dishonest at best and a flat out lie at worst.
You are free to disagree with me till the cows come home.
You will not change my mind.
I have had several people much better at this than you try and fail.

Thank for your concerns, but there are no unbelievers or backsliders in my family tree so I sleep quite well.

I have no doubts what-so-ever that you sleep well.

 

[emiliano]

Mestemia,
You say:

The fact is that I do not believe that the God of the Bible is omni anything.
I can use the Bible to show this.
Not that you would listen as you seem to think you got God all figured out...

Agree, don’t go there, I don’t have God all figured out, and I don’t think that I can, but reading the bible and the works of great thinkers bring joy to me, Luis De Molina is quite good in this area, I agree with Pascal, God is infinitely incomprehensible to us this side of life. Thus I do listen to sound reasoning. Yours? well I don’t think much of it.
You say:

So now I am irrational because I find it dishonest and want nothing to do with any deity who accepts such dishonest practices?
The assumptions you have to make to hold onto your box...

This is an excellent evangelization tool, I like to start from a position of trust, I believe that whoever make the decision is sincere and this is only the beginning, the first basic step, they grow/mature pretty fast after their conversion. So no worries there either.
You say: LOL

Sorry.
i was laughing so hard I literally peed my pants.

You should get that checked by a doctor, it could be serious and the examination could be enjoyable. Lol

You say:

Do you honestly believe that I am worried?

I really don’t know what to believe, you are a complex individual, and so am I.

You say:

In all honesty, I could care less about your deity either way.
You sad attempt at turning this into some sort guilt trip will not work.
Nice try though.

Your choice, but the game is on, you were born and you will die, then you will find out, my only concerns it those things that you attribute to our faith and then attack us on those bases, is that a straw man or what? And I do get worked up about that, that is why I respond to you. It is simple really, the mover of the topic asked for arguments for the existence of God, I like the Intelligence Design better, but Pascal’s ain’t bad.
You say:

I have had several people much better at this than you try and fail.

That Ok. I think that you are hopeless and I don’t have the skill to turn you around, it’s just that you are very opinionated and funny, I like funny people! I know in whom I trust.

 

[McBell]

Agree, don’t go there, I don’t have God all figured out, and I don’t think that I can, but reading the bible and the works of great thinkers bring joy to me, Luis De Molina is quite good in this area, I agree with Pascal, God is infinitely incomprehensible to us this side of life. Thus I do listen to sound reasoning. Yours? well I don’t think much of it.

Interesting that God is so incomprehensible, yet here you are telling me all manner of extra-Biblical stuff about him...

This is an excellent evangelization tool, I like to start from a position of trust, I believe that whoever make the decision is sincere and this is only the beginning, the first basic step, they grow/mature pretty fast after their conversion. So no worries there either.

position of trust?
I flat out state that Pascals Wager is a dishonest lie and you claim to start with a "position of trust"?

You should get that checked by a doctor, it could be serious and the examination could be enjoyable.

You struck my funny bone extremely hard with the nonsense you spouted is all.
But like the old saying goes:

One mans truth is another mans nonsense.
​

I really don’t know what to believe, you are a complex individual, and so am I.

No arguments there.

Your choice, but the game is on, you were born and you will die, then you will find out, my only concerns it those things that you attribute to our faith and then attack us on those bases, is that a straw man or what?

What are you talking about?
I opted out of your deities game long ago.
If you and or your deity do not like it, well tough. get over yourselves.

And I do get worked up about that, that is why I respond to you. It is simple really, the mover of the topic asked for arguments for the existence of God, I like the Intelligence Design better, but Pascal’s ain’t bad.

Pascals is nothing but a safety net.
And a dishonest one at that.
It is not even evidence of the existence of God, let alone proof.

That Ok. I think that you are hopeless and I don’t have the skill to turn you around, it’s just that you are very opinionated and funny, I like funny people! I know in whom I trust.

I am no more opinionated that you are.
Though i may well be more vocal, outspoken, and blunt than you.
But no, not any more opinionated.

 

[McBell]

Emiliano,
I tell you what, if you want a good example of what I believe, read the book:

On A Pale Horse By Piers Anthony.
^^LINK^^
​

 

[emiliano]

Emiliano,

I tell you what, if you want a good example of what I believe, read the book:

On A Pale Horse By Piers Anthony.​

^^LINK^^​

But Mestima my chips are down and I am pretty certain that I am on a winner, I am a Christian suggesting good arguments, I don’t think that I would get much value for money in that book, I just finished reading the City of God and bought Confession, so am pretty busy’ plus every now and then I have a go at understanding Aquinas Suma, that’s is book! I read the Bible and study it with may family, there is just no time or desire, but thanks anyway.