Looking for Proofs is Adultery to Jesus

[Brickjectivity]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

 

[Nakosis]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

So basically put it all in God's hands. Even to whether one believes in God or not?
Don't look for or offer proof of God?
Folks should act according to whatever is already in their heart?

 

[InChrist]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

I don't think we are to seek after signs and wonders, but God desires people to have faith that is based on a reason and a foundation of truth. I believe the Bible has provided such a foundation.


"Faith, therefore, ought to have an even more solid basis than mere belief. One may be willing to allow some uncertainty in earthly matters, but only a fool would be comfortable with even the smallest degree of doubt in things that affect him eternally. No wonder the great Apostle Paul wrote, "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians:5:21).

Luke tells us that during the 40 days Jesus spent with His disciples after His resurrection, He "showed himself alive . . . by many infallible proofs" (Acts:1:3). Clearly, Christ did not consider it enough merely to show Him-self to His disciples without providing irrefutable evidence of His resurrection. He considered it both legitimate and essential to prove that He was the very same One who had been crucified and that He had risen from the dead in the same body (but now in a new and glorious form) that had been placed lifeless in the grave.

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself," Christ told the shocked disciples the first time He came to them after His resurrection. "Handle me and see, for a spirit [ghost] hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke:24:39). They had thought they were seeing a ghost, but He proved otherwise to them. To doubting Thomas, who had not been present on this first occasion, Christ declared later: "Reach hither thy finger and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side . . ." (John:20:27). Here was irrefutable, tangible evidence."

In Defense of the Faith

 

[Sky Rivers]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

It is my view that the signs have ceased, leaving only “the sign of Jonah” to remain. Current and the future signs will convince many and they also will be fooled to think Christ is “over there” or “there” when He’s not returning to Earth until after the Great Day of the Lord; his return will be in the clouds.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So basically put it all in God's hands. Even to whether one believes in God or not?
Don't look for or offer proof of God?
Folks should act according to whatever is already in their heart?

What do you feel Jesus is saying about it? Please use Bible verses or other scholarship.

 

[exchemist]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

Very much agree. I think it was Cardinal Newman who pointed out the danger people expose themselves to if they seek physical proof of their faith in things they see in nature (e.g. creationists). He pointed out that as our understanding of nature advances, such a person is in danger of losing his faith. It is a shallow and rickety foundation.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is my view that the signs have ceased, leaving only “the sign of Jonah” to remain. Current and the future signs will convince many and they also will be fooled to think Christ is “over there” or “there” when He’s not returning to Earth until after the Great Day of the Lord. His return will be in the clouds.

We are in a Biblical debate section, so its OK to go beyond your view and provide Bible scriptures that you feel supports it. No pressure though! Also I realize that not everyone builds up their understanding of Christ from the Bible alone. I actually don't see how anyone can without some extra information. Its more experiential and needs historical and cultural information. A lot of people rely on sermons, archeology, etc just to understand the culture and sense of scripture verses. There's a difference between hearing that Jesus went into a house and having an idea of what that house might look like inside and what kind of lamps and furniture were in there, how dinner was served, how prayers were done and all of that. Its a much richer experience when we have background.

 

[Nakosis]

What do you feel Jesus is saying about it? Please use Bible verses or other scholarship.

More interested in your view, or at least is this what you intended to imply but...

Romans 9:11-21,
Specifically -
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Can we even make the choice to believe?

 

[Nakosis]

It is my view that the signs have ceased, leaving only “the sign of Jonah” to remain. Current and the future signs will convince many and they also will be fooled to think Christ is “over there” or “there” when He’s not returning to Earth until after the Great Day of the Lord; his return will be in the clouds.

Just my understanding, the sign of Jonah happened when Jesus died and was resurrected. Jonah was swallowed by the whale, Jesus by the earth.

 

[Brickjectivity]

@InChrist thanks for your contribution

"Faith, therefore, ought to have an even more solid basis than mere belief. One may be willing to allow some uncertainty in earthly matters, but only a fool would be comfortable with even the smallest degree of doubt in things that affect him eternally. No wonder the great Apostle Paul wrote, "Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good" (1 Thessalonians:5:21).

It doesn't seem to suggest to me that we go through complex proofs that prove whether miracles have happened. I would read this word 'prove' here as the modern word for test. Test all things and hold fast to what is good as-in test which things are good. The word used in the KJV is prove, but the meaning of prove has drifted since then. The verse means don't be afraid to touch, to taste and fits with this one: Colossians 2:20 "Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: ' Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch! ' ?" It also goes with Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might..." What do you think of that? As Christians we do not have all the limitations that Jews have. We may eat bacon etc. That seems to be what the verse applies to.

Luke tells us that during the 40 days Jesus spent with His disciples after His resurrection, He "showed himself alive . . . by many infallible proofs" (Acts:1:3). Clearly, Christ did not consider it enough merely to show Him-self to His disciples without providing irrefutable evidence of His resurrection. He considered it both legitimate and essential to prove that He was the very same One who had been crucified and that He had risen from the dead in the same body (but now in a new and glorious form) that had been placed lifeless in the grave.

Yes it does, and it is ironic since we have a previous law to the Jews (in Deuteronomy 13) stating they are not to be swayed by miracles, so that Jesus proofs of being alive should not have swayed his disciples to follow him. More strongly I must never consider them to have been swayed by his resurrection. Rather they must have been won just as Simon was when he recognized Jesus by means of a direct revelation from the Father and was renamed 'Peter' or which meant 'Boulder'.

The resurrection is/was not allowed to be used as proof of God's favor, so what are we to do? The answer is going to have a larger scope. I think the purpose of the resurrection has an important meaning, but Jesus own actions and words and accomplishments and that of his saints are all we need to know if he's true enough for us to follow. Since we can't see the complete end result of his work yet, part of that is not yet shown but is on credit and gets referred to in 1 Corinthians 13 as faith the evidence of things not seen. We have faith that he who has begun a good work in us will "carry it until completion until the day of Christ. (Phillippians 1:6 NIV)" In that confidence we proceed. Without it we cannot, but we can't get that confidence through miracles. I think it is probably because we have consciences and must judge right and wrong ourselves.

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself," Christ told the shocked disciples the first time He came to them after His resurrection. "Handle me and see, for a spirit [ghost] hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke:24:39). They had thought they were seeing a ghost, but He proved otherwise to them. To doubting Thomas, who had not been present on this first occasion, Christ declared later: "Reach hither thy finger and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side . . ." (John:20:27). Here was irrefutable, tangible evidence."

Indeed Jesus appears to Thomas and to the Twelve, yet we are not allowed to let miracles sway us. I have given some bible verses in my previous paragraph about why I think it is and why I think Jesus teaches this.

 

[Brickjectivity]

More interested in your view, or at least is this what you intended to imply but...

Romans 9:11-21,
Specifically -
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Can we even make the choice to believe?

Background on Malachi:
Romans 9 refers to the book of the prophet, Malachi. Malachi is a fairly short work which complains that the preachers of his day say nice things about whoever pays them, so they overlook some terrible injustices in society. In particular (and Malachi is probably talking about Levites and the Nazarites when he refers to the prophets) women are being bought and sold by abusive marriage documents and divorce documents. The politicians and the wealthy are behind it. Women are being tricked into marriage and then used like slaves, but the prophets of Malachi's day are ignoring it. Its a subversion of the Torah, but the prophets are acting like everything is fine and not saying anything rude to their supporters about it. Thus they are supporting political corruption and the destitution of women.

Romans 9
The author of Romans chooses to quote from the opening 2 verses of Malachi in the times before there verse references. He skips about in referring to various themes in the Pentateuch, but listening I think we ought to hear Romans 9 and Malachi calling back and forth to each other a bit. They don't seem to, though. Instead its merely a convenient quote for introducing his topic. Romans takes a position on a theological controversy over whether bad things should happen to good people. The position of Peter and of Christianity in general is that yes bad things can happen to good people but only for the same purpose that bad things happen to Jesus. Possibly he thinks normally bad things should happen to bad people with that exception, however it is not clear to me at this moment. Out of this position Romans 9 abstracts that mercy is given to whomsoever God wills. He points that that during various massacres of Jews that some are selected to survive, and so he is making the point that the survivors are not particularly better than the ones who are killed in that case. Some are killed, and some survive. He is saying in this case that the selection of the gentiles is like that, that they are like the survivors who got lucky and that there is no blame to be cast upon the Jews just because they are not selected to be members of the church.

So... the kind of belief you are talking about is a gift; but that is not the kind of belief that is impressive. Its got a purpose, but you don't get any crown for it. The crown involves the superior kind of faith which results in action.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So, you are not in favor of proofs. But the Bible says in I Thessalonians 5:21 that we should "prove all things". Are you in favor of the Bible?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So, you are not in favor of proofs. But the Bible says in I Thessalonians 5:21 that we should "prove all things". Are you in favor of the Bible?

I address this in my reply to InChrist who has the same basic comment, and here is me quoting my post:

It doesn't seem to suggest to me that we go through complex proofs that prove whether miracles have happened. I would read this word 'prove' here as the modern word for test. Test all things and hold fast to what is good as-in test which things are good. The word used in the KJV is prove, but the meaning of prove has drifted since then. The verse means don't be afraid to touch, to taste and fits with this one: Colossians 2:20 "Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: ' Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch! ' ?" It also goes with Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might..." What do you think of that? As Christians we do not have all the limitations that Jews have. We may eat bacon etc. That seems to be what the verse applies to.

Basically its a slight of hand to use the old king james word 'Prove' when its meaning has drifted since the printing. Instead look at it as taste and touch, that kind of test. Its probably also an allusion to Jesus comment to judge the prophets by their fruit. Matthew 7:20 "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." a teaching which directly contradicts the idea of proving what is good by means of arguments. Instead just listen to good people identifying them by their good work.

 

[SomeRandom]

I accidentally misread the title as “poofs” and was quite concerned

 

[InChrist]

@InChrist thanks for your contribution
It doesn't seem to suggest to me that we go through complex proofs that prove whether miracles have happened. I would read this word 'prove' here as the modern word for test. Test all things and hold fast to what is good as-in test which things are good. The word used in the KJV is prove, but the meaning of prove has drifted since then. The verse means don't be afraid to touch, to taste and fits with this one: Colossians 2:20 "Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: ' Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch! ' ?" It also goes with Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might..." What do you think of that? As Christians we do not have all the limitations that Jews have. We may eat bacon etc. That seems to be what the verse applies to.

For the most part I agree with your thoughts. The word "prove" does seem to have more the connotation of "test" and that is the word used in the NKJV. ...Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
I don't think we are to go through complex proofs whether the miracles happened since the scriptures display internal integrity, prophetic, historical and archeological accuracy then I see no reason to doubt the miracles.

Yes it does, and it is ironic since we have a previous law to the Jews (in Deuteronomy 13) stating they are not to be swayed by miracles, so that Jesus proofs of being alive should not have swayed his disciples to follow him. More strongly I must never consider them to have been swayed by his resurrection. Rather they must have been won just as Simon was when he recognized Jesus by means of a direct revelation from the Father and was renamed 'Peter' or which meant 'Boulder'.

The resurrection is/was not allowed to be used as proof of God's favor, so what are we to do? The answer is going to have a larger scope. I think the purpose of the resurrection has an important meaning, but Jesus own actions and words and accomplishments and that of his saints are all we need to know if he's true enough for us to follow. Since we can't see the complete end result of his work yet, part of that is not yet shown but is on credit and gets referred to in 1 Corinthians 13 as faith the evidence of things not seen. We have faith that he who has begun a good work in us will "[B][I]carry it until completion until the day of Christ. (Phillippians 1:6 NIV)[/I][/B]" In that confidence we proceed. Without it we cannot, but we can't get that confidence through miracles. I think it is probably because we have consciences and must judge right and wrong ourselves.

Indeed Jesus appears to Thomas and to the Twelve, yet we are not allowed to let miracles sway us. I have given some bible verses in my previous paragraph about why I think it is and why I think Jesus teaches this.

[COLOR=#000000]I don't quite understand what you mean when you say, "[I]The resurrection is/was[B] not allowed[/B][U] t[/U]o be used as proof [/I]or[I] we are [B]not allowed[/B] to let miracles sway us". [/I]I certainly don't think we are to be looking for more miracles or signs and wonders to increase faith ( although if God chooses to exhibit these that is His prerogative), because faith comes by hearing the word of God. I believe the miracles Jesus preformed while on earth were for the purpose of proving His deity and control over the natural world, with the resurrection being the ultimate testimony of His power over life and death and that believing this does not contradict any of the scriptures you previously posted.[/COLOR]

 

[Kenny]

I am not in favor of proofs anymore. If I correctly interpret Jesus parable of Lazarus and 'The rich man': if someone were to die and rise from the dead and return it would not be enough to get people to change their ways. I am against Creationist proofs. I am against records of miracles. I am against the miracles claimed and promoted by any church, such as blood from statues or healings or any other kind of physical miracle. I am against the investigation of miracles to see if they are real, and I think Jesus is too.

My experience and study tells me people either desire to be like Jesus or we don't, and proofs don't seem important for that purpose. They actually can deceive us into thinking we have faith, if I correctly interpret Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats.

John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "

Here is a good verse from Colossians opposing the books and all the sermons that brag about seeing an afterlife. Colossians 2:18 "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind." The reason I think its a good verse is that it refers to those who have unspiritual minds, and it is a quote from Jesus that leads me to make this connection.

Matthew 16:4 " 'A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.' Jesus then left them and went away."


My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

All verses referred to should be considered in context and not merely read. I have included portions that seem to highlight points I'm making, but truth be told I'd include much larger sections of scripture verses if my own and others attention spans were more reliable.

Anyone care to disagree or comment? Remember this is in Biblical debates. Any religion may comment, but its all Bible and Bible experts, not about archeological digs and history and all that unless it pertains to the Bible and specifically to the adultery involved in looking for proofs. I'm not looking for a Science conversation. Perhaps there is a Bible verse or two that you feel invalidates the claims of this OP or have a question you'd like me to comment upon? Be gentle.

I think it is a little too harsh.

Take for example:


John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "


Notice he didn't say "Because it took you to see to believe, YOU ARE NO LONGER MY APOSTLE". No, Thomas was mighty used after.

Again:John 11:45
From that day forward many of those who had come to visit Mary believed in him, for they had seen with their own eyes this amazing miracle!

I think the correct application is "Those who REQUIRE A MIRACLE will never be satisfied". They will always have a reason why it isn't so.

Even the recent boy who miraculously survived a 3 story fall with no brain injuries, a miracle, wasn't enough to convince those who require a miracle.

But miracles do help those who are hungry or searching.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think it is a little too harsh.

Take for example:


John 20:29 "(NIV) Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' "


Notice he didn't say "Because it took you to see to believe, YOU ARE NO LONGER MY APOSTLE". No, Thomas was mighty used after.

Again:John 11:45
From that day forward many of those who had come to visit Mary believed in him, for they had seen with their own eyes this amazing miracle!

I think the correct application is "Those who REQUIRE A MIRACLE will never be satisfied". They will always have a reason why it isn't so.

Even the recent boy who miraculously survived a 3 story fall with no brain injuries, a miracle, wasn't enough to convince those who require a miracle.

But miracles do help those who are hungry or searching.

That sounds reasonable. I can not at this time think of examples to the contrary.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You know, the Israelites for 40 years had miracles everyday...the pillar of fire at night, and manna on the ground every morning (almost); but it didn’t affect them, did it? They still complained!

 

[Enoch07]

My conclusion is: Ignore claims, sermons and books with evidences of the afterlife, proofs or records of miracles. Ignore healing services. Ignore people who try to handle snakes, do miracles on stage and try to predict the future. Ignore them all.

I have no arguments I agree.

Here is a verse to seriously consider as a warning for anyone who finds themselves following after miracles and signs and trying to prove God's existence or the claims of Jesus with arguments, records and evidences: Proverbs 7:26-27 "Many are the victims she has brought down; her slain are a mighty throng. Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death."

Also I might add, because it backs up your argument.

Thessalonians 2 9-12

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.