Looks like Americans go against the war with Iran

[Father Heathen]

Again, so what. Are you so afraid of what the rest of the world thinks that you would sacrifice American diplomats and troops? What do you think would happen if Soleimani was able to carry out his plans? Who gives a rat's gluts what they make him out to be; he's still just as dead and the world is a better place.

You responded to an incomplete and deleted post (RF tends to glitch out on this POS phone). I never got to my actual point, but no I wouldn't want to make anything more deadly or dangerous for anyone. It might've been the right move, but time will tell. I simply hope it doesn't escalate into a much bigger and far worse mess.
But with an incompetent buffoon at the helm, I'm very pessimistic.

 

[Father Heathen]

Tell you what.

YOU people handle the situation, if you don't want the US to do so. All you have to do is fix it so that terrorists can't fly planes into buildings, attack ambassadors from other nations, behead citizens of other nations...you know. like that. Until you do that, don't yell at us because we actually attempt to do something about it.

Whether we do it 'right,' or make the correct decisions or not, at least we are doing something.

Perhaps they don't get involved in fixing it because they weren't involved in breaking it?

 

[Father Heathen]

I can't wait for them to blame Israel at some point since Netanyahu congratulated Trump and said they stand with us. I have already seen in another place some claiming Israel is pulling U.S.
strings and they consider themselves lefties. The funny thing is all they would have to do is add ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government) in a sentence or two and they would fit right in at a White Nationalist site.
They seem to dislike Trump more than a war criminal that orchestrated genocide, rape, and torture on a mass scale in Syria. It's amazing and disgusting to watch them crawl on their bellies kowtowing like Japanese to their shrines for war criminals.

So you're attaching armbands to your straw men now.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, so what. Are you so afraid of what the rest of the world thinks that you would sacrifice American diplomats and troops? What do you think would happen if Soleimani was able to carry out his plans? Who gives a rat's gluts what they make him out to be; he's still just as dead and the world is a better place.

It's useful to understand how an enemy reacts to attacks.
Nuclear bombs on Japan ended that war because of the threat
of overwhelming destruction. But we're not threatening that
with Iran. Sure, sure, Trump talks tough. But our histories in
Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq show that nukes are off the table.
It's to be conventional warfare (with higher tech), & we cannot
stomach that for long enuf to do the whole job.

Surgical strikes which kill individuals have limited effect.
So instead of sending a message which says, "Perps beware
the wrath of Uncle Sam!", we just inspire them to attack again.

 

[dianaiad]

It is sad that people believe war can solve any problem. All it does is spreading more hate and more suffering.

It also, when unavoidable, ends it.

Nobody honors the Japanese more than I do; they are courageous, honorable....and if we hadn't dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they WOULD have fought to the very bitter end, and far, FAR more people would have died.

As horrific a choice as that was (a choice that we have never made since and probably never will make again, because unlike others, we KNOW what the results are), it saved more lives than it took. the war....ended, right then and right there.

I wish we hadn't had to do that. However, I can tell you that had we not, my father would most probably have been killed, Japan would eventually have been utterly destroyed, and the Japanese culture utterly wiped out. I've done a lot of research about this, weighing one thing over the other, listening to Japanese historians and warriors who told me...and wrote down...what their plans were.

Were you aware that every Japanese family buried their most precious belongings in ceramic jars in their yards, because they absolutely figured that they would die fighting American 'invaders,' down to the last child?

You don't believe that? Would you care to examine what happened in Saipain, where thousands of Japanese jumped off the cliffs to avoid capture by the US forces.....and the comments about them by the Japanese were: "the pride of Japanese women?" There was, and is, no 'give' in the Japanese. I'm not sure we wouldn't have lost millions of people without showing them that there was no dishonor in bowing to a force they simply COULD NOT battle. We could simply wipe them out without losing a single American life. It took that level of force to convince them that peace was a better option than fighting to the very bitter, bitter end.

So now we are determined that Iran CANNOT wipe Israel (or American or European cities) off the map for no reason except that they want to. If Iran is allowed to do this, Israel WILL be targeted with nuclear weapons. So will anybody in the middle east that opposes them. So will any place in Europe they don't approve of, and absolutely the US will be.

that's not fear mongering. Their leaders have very proudly proclaimed that this is their goal, period.

So if we can stop it by some means short of nuking them, we must.

Unless, of course, someone else does it.

 

[dianaiad]

Personally, I don't believe in the war to be any good. But i know few think this way

No problem, Find another way and implement it. Peace is always better than war, but in order for peace to happen, everybody must want it, and engage in it. If one side (Iran, say) wants war (and the present leadership of Iran seems to) then whether or not the other side wants peace means nothing. There will be war.

The only thing we can realistically hope for is regime change. Plenty of Iranians are against the militarily aggressive attitude Iranian leaders have. Until then, all we can do is make war SO costly for them that they'll think twice before engaging in it.

Unless, of course, you can think of another way?

 

[dianaiad]

It's useful to understand how an enemy reacts to attacks.
Nuclear bombs on Japan ended that war because of the threat
of overwhelming destruction. But we're not threatening that
with Iran. Sure, sure, Trump talks tough. But our histories in
Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq show that nukes are off the table.
It's to be conventional warfare (with higher tech), & we cannot
stomach that for long enuf to do the whole job.

Surgical strikes which kill individuals have limited effect.
So instead of sending a message which says, "Perps beware
the wrath of Uncle Sam!", we just inspire them to attack again.

(sigh) I really wish you didn't have a point.

The problem is with the partisanship. The left won't LET the American military do the job properly. We don't need to nuke the place, but we do indeed need to bomb enough to 'do the whole job."

 

[Father Heathen]

I suppose the reason why young people are against war is that it will " screw up their careers".

Or, you know, they're against sending thousands of kids off (many not old enough to drink) to die in vain or suffer from physical injury and psychological trauma.
Life isn't a video game or 1980's action movie.

 

[BSM1]

It's useful to understand how an enemy reacts to attacks.
Nuclear bombs on Japan ended that war because of the threat
of overwhelming destruction. But we're not threatening that
with Iran. Sure, sure, Trump talks tough. But our histories in
Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq show that nukes are off the table.
It's to be conventional warfare (with higher tech), & we cannot
stomach that for long enuf to do the whole job.

Surgical strikes which kill individuals have limited effect.
So instead of sending a message which says, "Perps beware
the wrath of Uncle Sam!", we just inspire them to attack again.

Fortunately there are four major targets that can be accessed in Iran that would cripple the country. These can be taken out with minimal loss of life. Again, I don't believe that the Iranian Theocracy are a bunch of dummies; they know how vulnerable they are. I believe that they are depending on the rest of the Muslim world to rise up and help them in a Holy War of attrition against the US and allies.

 

[Revoltingest]

(sigh) I really wish you didn't have a point.

The problem is with the partisanship. The left won't LET the American military do the job properly. We don't need to nuke the place, but we do indeed need to bomb enough to 'do the whole job."

In order to avoid the threat of Iran going to war,
we should wage a war against them?
One which obliterates them (as Hillary promised).
Can you imagine how many people would die?
And what if Iran gets support from Russia or China?
Imagine their new hypersonic missiles striking NYC.
Does Iran pose such a threat that you'd risk global
war reaching our doorstep?

 

[BSM1]

Or, you know, they're against sending thousands of kids off (many not old enough to drink) to die in vain or suffer from physical injury and psychological trauma.
Life isn't a video game or 1980's action movie.

Good grief, as has been previous stated in other posts, everyone who enlists knows they are expendable. Given the choice, I doubt very few would reconsider the choice they have made.

 

[dianaiad]

Perhaps they don't get involved in fixing it because they weren't involved in breaking it?

They were as involved in 'breaking it' as ANYTHING we have done. In fact, the people doing the 'breaking' are all Iran, Iraq, Syria, etc.,. As far as I can tell, the biggest bad decisions WE have made in the area is not getting the job done right in the first place, and we keep backing down and allowing them to regroup...and attack again.

And all we get from Europe is criticism, and precious little help. Just expectations that we FIX a problem all by ourselves that we didn't make all by ourselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fortunately there are four major targets that can be accessed in Iran that would cripple the country. These can be taken out with minimal loss of life. Again, I don't believe that the Iranian Theocracy are a bunch of dummies; they know how vulnerable they are. I believe that they are depending on the rest of the Muslim world to rise up and help them in a Holy War of attrition against the US and allies.

I remember analysis presented to us that Iraq would welcome us as heroes.
How'd that go?
Iraq tried for 8 years to defeat Iran. Even with our military assistance, they
failed. And if you know that they'd be crippled by hitting 4 targets, don't you
think they'd know this too, & take precautions?
Even if we did eventually crush Iran, we'd be there spending billions helping
them recover. And over half of that money would be squandered & siphoned
off without accounting.

I wonder if the kind of people who sign up to be soldiers would ever wise up,
& think to themselves...."Dang. This is a stupid war. I'm killing people just
because Trump & God hate them. To Hell with this....I refuse."

 

[dianaiad]

In order to avoid the threat of Iran going to war,
we should wage a war against them?

Whatever it takes to prevent it.

As I said, peace only happens when everybody involved wants peace. It doesn't matter how much you want it, or I want it, or the USA wants it, and believe it or not, left wing propaganda or not, we are NOT all that thrilled about sending our young people to war. it doesn't matter. Iran wants war. Therefore, there will be war.

If there will be war, it is better for everybody that the side pushing for it find out that doing so is a really, really bad idea; no profit or power in it for them.

One which obliterates them (as Hillary promised).
Can you imagine how many people would die?

Oddly enough, as we proved in WWII, not as many people will die if we stop the war than if we refuse to wage one...or only wage one half heartedly.

And what if Iran gets support from Russia or China?
Imagine their new hypersonic missiles striking NYC.
Does Iran pose such a threat that you'd risk global
war reaching our doorstep?

Yes. Because Russia and China don't want nuclear weapons aimed at them any more than we want them aimed at us. We may not LIKE their political ideals that much, but they have proven over the decades that they aren't that insane.

but Iran, if they get nuclear weapons, will USE them. They have very proudly stated that they would. Against Israel, against us....they have no compunctions at all about using them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Or, you know, they're against sending thousands of kids off (many not old enough to drink) to die in vain or suffer from physical injury and psychological trauma.
Life isn't a video game or 1980's action movie.

Have you seen any commercials to sign up?
They show soldiers looking all warrior with weapons & uniforms.
It's all about pride & country.
They don't show anyone getting shot.
It's the rounding up of the gullible.

 

[Revoltingest]

Whatever it takes to prevent it.

Does this mean prevent it all costs?
In the most brutal & assured manner possible?

As I said, peace only happens when everybody involved wants peace. It doesn't matter how much you want it, or I want it, or the USA wants it, and believe it or not, left wing propaganda or not, we are NOT all that thrilled about sending our young people to war. it doesn't matter. Iran wants war. Therefore, there will be war.

You say Iran wants war, but on what basis?

If there will be war, it is better for everybody that the side pushing for it find out that doing so is a really, really bad idea; no profit or power in it for them.

Politicians here will perceive political benefit.

Oddly enough, as we proved in WWII, not as many people will die if we stop the war than if we refuse to wage one...or only wage one half heartedly.

It didn't actually prove what you claim.

Yes. Because Russia and China don't want nuclear weapons aimed at them any more than we want them aimed at us. We may not LIKE their political ideals that much, but they have proven over the decades that they aren't that insane.

You're wrong.
We've almost gone to war with the USSR accidentally several times.
(I've provided links in other posts. If anyone doubts it, just ask, & I'll search again.)
To create systems & a climate wherein global thermonuclear warfare can happen
without even intending it is indeed insane.

but Iran, if they get nuclear weapons, will USE them.

What basis is there for your certainty?
And if we should conquer every dangerous country with nukes,
should this include N Korea, Pakistan, Israel, & Russia?

They have very proudly stated that they would. Against Israel, against us....they have no compunctions at all about using them.

Evidence?

 

[Father Heathen]

Have you seen any commercials to sign up?
They show soldiers looking all warrior with weapons & uniforms.
It's all about pride & country.
They don't show anyone getting shot.
It's the rounding up of the gullible.

They also get fed platitudes such as "defending freedom". The only threat to our freedoms is ourselves by who we vote for.
So if we don't oppose war based on the death and suffering, how about the expense? War isn't cheap, and guess who gets the bill?
Paying taxes to help fellow americans = bad.
Paying taxes to bomb brown people in third world countries = good.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's useful to understand how an enemy reacts to attacks.
Nuclear bombs on Japan ended that war because of the threat
of overwhelming destruction. But we're not threatening that
with Iran. Sure, sure, Trump talks tough. But our histories in
Vietnam, Afghanistan & Iraq show that nukes are off the table.
It's to be conventional warfare (with higher tech), & we cannot
stomach that for long enuf to do the whole job.

Surgical strikes which kill individuals have limited effect.
So instead of sending a message which says, "Perps beware
the wrath of Uncle Sam!", we just inspire them to attack again.

This appears to have some truth in it. But you stopped short...suppose yourself POTUS, what would you do?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Good grief, as has been previous stated in other posts, everyone who enlists knows they are expendable. Given the choice, I doubt very few would reconsider the choice they have made.

As we continue to seek the path to being really human, to being a really intelligent species, I keep hoping that we can find a way to not suppose that lots and lots of other humans, usually young men, are "expendable."

Wouldn't that be an evolutionary stop up, I ask you?

 

[Revoltingest]

This appears to have some truth in it. But you stopped short...suppose yourself POTUS, what would you do?

I've laid out my plan before.
But I'll gladly do it again.
The short version....
- Get to know them.
- Acknowledge & apologize for our past misdeeds.
(This is emotional manipulation. It also happens to be sincere.)
- Ask for their concerns.
- Express ours.
- Bargain.